What Does It Mean To Be A Fan Of A Team Going Nowhere?
by James F on Jul 13, 2011 11:00 AM EDT
in Commentary & Analysis
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PrintWell, here we are at another All-Star break, and the Orioles have the second worst record in the American League and the fourth worst in baseball. They have the second worst run differential in baseball and the worst in the American League. For enthusiasts of traditional statistics, the Orioles have the worst ERA in baseball; for saber fans, the Orioles are last in baseball by UZR. The Orioles are also unlucky; they have scored the fourth fewest runs in the American League, despite having the seventh highest OPS in the league. We arrived at the All-Star break having lost nine of our last ten games, and with a rotation featuring Jeremy Guthrie, Mitch Atkins, Chris Jakubauskas, and Alfredo Simon. It seems safe to say that we aren't primed for a big second half.
As the survivors of thirteen consecutive losing seasons, Baltimore fans are used to seeing their team lose. But this season has been devastating to the hope that arrived four years ago with the hiring of Andy MacPhail as general manager. His rebuilding effort appears to have failed. Now in his fourth season with the Orioles, Adam Jones has not emerged into a star player. Neither has All-Star Matt Wieters, now in his third season in the majors. Our top pitching prospect of 2009, Chris Tillman, is back in the minors after having failed at the major league level. So is our top pitching prospect of 2010, Brian Matusz. Our top pitching prospect of 2011, Zach Britton, joined them there last week, after failing to get out of the first inning against the Red Sox. Meanwhile, our free agent stopgaps have become more expensive, but no more effective, with Vladimir Guerrero and Derrek Lee proving to be only marginally more useful than Garrett Atkins and Miguel Tejada were last season.
Our continued malaise as an organization this season is even harder to take because our perennial fellow bottom dwellers have all seen progress this season. The Pittsburgh Pirates are four games over .500 and a game back of their division lead. The Diamondbacks are six games over .500 and three back of their division lead. The Washington Nationals have a .500 record, and have done it with Stephen Strasburg missing the entire season and Ryan Zimmerman injured for a large portion of it. The Mariners have moved into third place, and have seen breakout campaigns from Michael Pineda and Dustin Ackley to go with Felix Hernandez and Justin Smoak to form a strong young core of talent. And while the Royals are only a game ahead of the Orioles in the standings, they have the top minor league system in baseball, which has seen the impressive debuts this season of Eric Hosmer, Danny Duffy, and Mike Moustakas. Fans in Kansas City feel, legitimately, that things are finally looking up.
And the Orioles, well, we have failed in nearly every way. We don't hit, we can't pitch, and we can't field. We don't develop top young players, nor do we succeed in signing free agents. The most excitement we've seen from Baltimore fans lately has come from the Orioles demonstrating that they are unable to hit even a target as large as David Ortiz with either a pitch or their fists. Watching the Orioles on and off the field, it feels like I am watching a team that is going nowhere, passing through a tunnel where I can't see the light on the other side.
It is hard for me to find the meaning in being an Orioles fan this season. At nearly whatever your expectations were for this season, the Orioles have managed to underperform. Unlike many O's fans and the actual management of the team, I didn't expect the Orioles to be good this season, or even to approach .500. I did, however, expect that they would be fun to watch, and that is not the case. At all. The Orioles are excruciating to watch, whether they be failing miserably with runners in scoring position, bungling routine plays in the field, tottering around the basepaths or giving up more home runs than anyone in baseball. Ten years after the publication of Defense Independent Pitching Statistics, we have the third worst groundball rate of any pitching staff in baseball; eight years after the publication of Moneyball, we have the third worst walk rate in the American League. We are stuck in the past, as symbolized by our free agent additions of some of the top stars of a decade ago.
The frustration level is increased because it feels like there is precious little the Orioles can do to turn this around. Unlike in previous seasons we can't look to a change of the manager to end our frustration; unlike his predecessors, Buck Showalter has the reputation of being one of the top managers in the game and the team has committed to him for multiple seasons. Nor do we have the hope of the cavalry coming around the corner; with the graduation of Britton, our top prospects are all in A ball or below. Under our present front office, our record of developing our own prospects is abysmal, but our record of scouting and signing major league free agents is worse. We can indulge, and will, for the next month in trade rumors, hoping that the next Oriole star will come from a trade of Jeremy Guthrie or Koji Uehara, but having been burned by Josh Bell, Tillman, and Jones, I have little faith in the ability of the O's to find a gem on the trade market. And while Guthrie and J.J. Hardy are nice players, we can hardly expect the kind of return for them that MacPhail got for Erik Bedard who was coming off a season as a Cy Young runner-up or a former MVP like Tejada. And of course, as much as we might fantasize about trades where we get Julio Teheran from the Braves for Adam Jones or Brandon Belt from the Giants for Hardy, the reality is that the O's don't have any articulated intention of dealing their best players; the latest rumors are that the Orioles will actually be buyers at the deadline, looking for veteran pitchers to shore up a rotation that until a couple weeks ago was leading the AAA Norfolk Tides to the worst record in the International League.
So, what do we have to hold on to? We aren't fun to watch, we aren't going through the growing pains of a rebuilding movement, we can't have faith that this is the start of something better. As a fan, I feel like I am being asked to be a sentinel; to bear witness to sport without hope. The old Dodgers refrain of "Wait 'til next year!" holds no promise for me; I believe in my bones that next year we are going to be no better off than we are this year. Manny Machado and Jonathan Schoop will be a year closer to the majors, but Wieters, Matusz and Tillman will all be a year further away from when they had the potential to be star players.
So where does that leave us? What's the rationale for following a team, rooting for a team, blogging about a team, when the fun is gone, and the hope is gone, and you are conducting an autopsy on the corpse-like remains? Why remain a fan of an organization that is inept on and off the field, that rewards our loyalty and passion so poorly?
These are hard questions, and my answer doesn't satisfy me as a thinking person. I keep watching the Orioles, thinking about the Orioles, caring about the Orioles for a simple reason: because I can't stop. I don't live in the Baltimore area anymore, but the love of it is in my blood. Baseball doesn't feel right to me if it doesn't come with pit beef and Old Bay fries, and the sight of the warehouse beyond right field. I'm a hostage to the Orioles, even when I know that they don't love me back and may never repay me for my affection and loyalty. And there is one more thing that I can't let go of, that keeps me coming back for more punishment...
It doesn't have to be this way.
Baseball isn't a fair game. There are teams who have huge advantages and always will, teams that have loads of money and recent success, teams that top prospects are eager to sign with and free agents are eager to play for. And they will always have an edge. And there are teams whose circumstances almost condemn them to long stretches of failure, teams like the Royals and Pirates who play in small media markets in poor areas, or teams like the Athletics and Rays who inhabit areas where there simply aren't enough fans who care about the team. The Orioles aren't like those teams. Our owner is not a miser. Our town still shows up in decent numbers and still tunes in on television. Even with over a decade of losing, of our having to elevate decent players into stars so we have heroes of our own, we still manage to be more popular than half the teams in baseball. We have the raw elements for baseball in Baltimore to be successful.
And we can be a part of making it happen. The Royals became a smarter team that emphasized a strong farm system in part because smart people like Joe Posnanski and Rany Jazayerli became the leading journalists following the team. They helped their fellow Royals fans become smarter about baseball, and helped lead that team towards making smarter baseball decisions to satisfy their fan base. Writers like Dave Cameron and Jason Churchill did the same for the Mariners, helping to end the Bill Bavasi era and allowing Jack Zduriencik the freedom to make bold moves to reshape their franchise.
That's a pretty thin reed to hold on to, I'll admit. I've given a lot already as a fan of this team, and gotten precious little back; it strikes me as highly irrational to give more, to ask others to give more, simply because I refuse to believe that it has all been for nothing. I find it hard to believe that, at this late stage, after he has been one of the worse owners in sports for almost two decades, that I am putting my faith in the ability for Peter Angelos to pull his club out of its death spiral.
As hard as it has been and probably will continue to be to watch the Orioles, this is a time in our franchise's history where a lot of interesting things will happen. Over the next month, we will have both the trade deadline and the signing deadline for the amateur draft, and how we handle them will tell us a lot about our future. A few months later, the contracts of our general manager and our scouting director will expire. What kind of future do we want to have as Orioles' fans? What kind of future will our owner, a man who whatever his faults loves our city, demand and try to achieve?
I will be here to witness it. I want to see what happens next. Even if it keeps breaking my heart.
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Amazing Article
I always appreciate really well written opinions. Especially when I agree with them.
If the Orioles are actually buyers at the deadline that would be indefensible.
If we're buying mediocre pitching just to eat innings
I may be done for quite some time.
Seems to me we have plenty of cast-offs in AAA and AA who can do that. Chris George. Rick VandenHurk. Nick Bierbrodt for relief. Zach Clark. Michael Ballard. Tim Bascom. All over 25, all going nowhere fast, and all DIRT CHEAP. Burn some innings with those guys. You’re gonna have to make room on the 40-man for someone else’s rejects, anyway.Why should we go get someone else’s castoffs when we have our own?
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
by duck on Jul 13, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I THINK they're all over 25.
I may have some of the math wrong.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Being an Orioles fan is the worst.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
by Stacey on Jul 13, 2011 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
what is that supposed to mean?
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
like to be able to say all that and vent. Get some of the frustration out.
by IggesRule13 on Jul 13, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
It was actually very painful. At a certain point, I had to stop writing and think about where to go with it.
It is hard to put into words a justification for fandom. Particularly fandom with so few rewards.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
by James F on Jul 13, 2011 11:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe the rewards of fandom are independent of the team's performance?
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jul 13, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
You might be right. Probably lots of Chicagoans we could ask.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
by James F on Jul 13, 2011 12:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you have to suffer for your team
"you know what the orioles could use right now? a day off." - joe angel
by swilhelmross on Jul 13, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Babe Ruth
Things just haven’t been the same since he left the Orioles.
lol
"Birdland is the belief that as great as today just was, tomorrow might be even better." -EME
by OriolesOptimist on Jul 13, 2011 11:20 AM EDT reply actions
I blame everything that goes wrong with my life on Jeffrey Maier
by kba26 on Jul 13, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I second that
"Birdland is the belief that as great as today just was, tomorrow might be even better." -EME
by OriolesOptimist on Jul 13, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
you mean rich garcia?
"you know what the orioles could use right now? a day off." - joe angel
by swilhelmross on Jul 13, 2011 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
"It doesn't have to be this way."
If the Orioles management will simply embrace the truth of that simple yet profound statement, the revival of baseball in Baltimore can begin.
I have absolutely no faith in their ability to do that.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
A lot of teams
in baseball lack hitting this year; hitting is a sore spot with at least 20 teams. Pitching is what determines the winner, and that is also the biggest Baltimore problem, lousy pitching. Stiff D hurts but the offense is improved, not enough to matter.
Free agents won’t be coming here much, so stop complaining about who does sign; the guys who don’t sign don’t WANT to come to Baltimore.
stop complaining about who does sign?
If the good players won’t come here, then the Orioles shouldn’t sign anyone. Do you really think they’d be a much worse team without Vlad and DLee this year?
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
People would then complain ...
… that they never signed anyone.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
It's not the job of the GM of the team to listen to the idiot whiners.
Any given GM (should) know better than they do.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 13, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe they think WE'RE the idiot whiners
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Jul 13, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
I can see AM sitting on his computer coming on CC after he gets bored looking for prospects on cubs.com.
Yeah, well, we're not the ones who signed Gonzo, Gregg, Vlad, and Derrek Lee.
So if that’s the attitude they have, then they can get bent, and also hopefully get fired and replaced by someone who’s better at building a winning baseball team.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 13, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree, of course. But I was only half kidding.
But to MacPhail, what’s the difference between us and the idiots calling into 105.7, or the guy who fixed my AC this morning and was bitching to me about the Albert Belle signing?
The answer is a well written, logical and fact-based argument, I know. But until you get MacPhail to sit down and listen to the argument, and to hear it enough times to believe the argument, we’re just another sect of disapproving fans. Like a band trying to get some record exec to listen to their demo. And that’s why James’ idea of infiltrating the media has legs.
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Jul 13, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
But until you get MacPhail to sit down and listen to the argument, and to hear it enough times to believe the argument, we’re just another sect of disapproving fans. Like a band trying to get some record exec to listen to their demo. And that’s why James’ idea of infiltrating the media has legs.
I don’t quite understand this point. MacPhail will never listen to the fans seriously… nor do I think he should. Plenty of fans wanted Vlad and Lee this offseason.
Folksy literate type.
Exactly
MacPhail will never listen to the fans seriously
I don’t think the opinions of blog participants hold any higher weight than the guy who still thinks we suck because we’re handcuffed by Albert Belle’s contract.
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Jul 13, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
MacPhail will never listen to the fans seriously… nor do I think he should. Plenty of fans wanted Vlad and Lee this offseason.
And this is why I think they actually do listen to the fans, to an extent.
they listen to the fans because selling your product depends on how marketable that product is
within days of the Vlad signing, the local Sports Authority was well stocked with his jerseys and no one else’s. Whether or not there is a cause and effect, I don’t think AM signs Vlad if our local media (and the fans) weren’t so enamored with the possibility.
ah gotcha,
I think they signed Vlad because they thought he would be productive. I suspect that media/fan sentiment had nothing to do with it. I think Andy thinks that if he signs productive players, fan sentiment will be on his side.
Folksy literate type.
I think you read too much into this.
I believe that the factors that go into any personnel decision are:
1) Does the player improve the team.
2) Will he be a fit with the current team.
3) Does he fit with our long term plan.
4) How much does it cost to obtain him.
5) Will the player contribute to the bottom line.
I won’t suppose I know what the priority of these questions might be with any ball club. My guess is that signing Vlad may have contained some aspect of it being seen as a positive aspect from a fan opinion standpoint, but I have to think that GM’s, like players, try not to pay attention to what the media and the fans say.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
My guess is that signing Vlad may have contained some aspect of it being seen as a positive aspect from a fan opinion standpoint,
Yup, I agree. I think Andy saw a positive fan reaction as a good thing about signing bad, that was merely an added benefit not a reason to sign him.
Folksy literate type.
Maybe MacPhail doesn't listen...
…but Angelos does. He cares what the fans think. So do the marketing people for MASN, who tried to sell Maximum Izturis to us. So do their advertisers. I will wager that someone sends a report to MacPhail telling him when Reimold jerseys outsell Guerrero ones. I will wager that someone at the executive level of the Orioles knows the difference in attendance between a game where Britton starts and when 3E1N starts. Someone else probably knows the difference in television viewers when Tatum catches instead of Wieters.
This is a big business, one with over $100 million in revenues every year, and an operating budget of similar size, with employees in multiple countries. They are paying attention to the details, even if they aren’t the ones we wish they were.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Angelos listens to the fans?
If he did, he should have died by now! But to be serious, I certainly agree that he cares about fan sentiment which is why he nixed the David Wells trade in 96. I don’t get what this means in a player development/acquisition context. For example, I wanted Mike Napoli in the off season over Lee. Let’s say I managed to create a strong fan sentiment for Mike Napoli. Are we saying that Angelos gets Mike Napoli for us? Are we saying MASN and their advertisers pressures MacPhail to get Mike Napoli for us? At best, it might get Napoli on Andy’s radar, but even as low as I think of Andy, I suspect Napoli was already on his radar but he choose to ignore Napoli for baseball reasons.
Folksy literate type.
I think what James is saying
is that there are a number of business-based criteria that inform decisions in the development/acquisition context. These criteria may lead to choosing Lee over Napoli even if Napoli is better at baseball. Because we look at the O’s as fans, and not as the owner of the O’s, we are limited to viewing acquisitions in terms of whether the acquisition adds WAR value (or whatever measuring stick you prefer) whereas Angelos and others may be balancing WAR value and overall $ value, which includes more than just the salary paid to the player.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
I think what James is saying is that there are a number of business-based criteria. These criteria may lead to choosing Lee over Napoli even if Napoli is better at baseball.
What are these business considerations? And how do they inform decisions? I understand what you’re saying to a certain extent. For example, there was strong fan sentiment to keep Brady Anderson and Mike Mussina. Angelos kept Brady but let Mike go. I’m sure where you guys are going with this. And if these business considerations inform decisions to the point where the team is acquiring worse players, that’s just sad and I don’t think that’s actually the case.
Because we look at the O’s as fans, and not as the owner of the O’s, we are limited to viewing acquisitions in terms of whether the acquisition adds WAR value (or whatever measuring stick you prefer) whereas Angelos and others may be balancing WAR value and overall $ value,
Actually, I’m considering overall $ value too. i partially wanted Napoli because he’s cheap.
Folksy literate type.
I wanted Napoli too, it’s like a double Reynolds in the lineup.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
No
What I am saying is that fan sentiment registers with the team in a myriad of ways that they notice. And I am saying that the quality and influence of the sports media is a significant influence on fan sentiment.
A great example is the draft. There were some teams that recognized the importance of the draft and acted accordingly, but when Scott Boras first started, he was universally viewed as a villain. Players like J.D. Drew and Pat Burrell who held out for big bonuses were booed, even in their own hometown. Teams regularly punted on the draft for various reasons, and fans didn’t, for the most part, notice or care. You might hear about a Ben McDonald when he was drafted #1 overall, or know that the Orioles had a top prospect like Jeffrey Hammonds they were trying to fit into the major league lineup.
Then, more people started to notice that teams that drafted better did better. People like Keith Law at Baseball Prospectus got slightly famous writing about it, until he was hired by a major league team. Michael Lewis, who was already famous, made Billy Beane famous by writing about it. Everybody started noticing. Fans of the teams who wouldn’t pay overslot bonuses or draft Boras clients turned on the teams; they wanted the players who would hold out until the deadline for the most money.
And today, only the teams most immune to fan opinion don’t always go big in the draft, and every team in baseball drafts Boras clients and makes overslot deals. They have to. The fans demand it. The top seven picks, regardless of whether they were protected or unprotected, went to the consensus top seven talents in the draft. Even if the Orioles wanted to make a Matt Hobgood pick, they couldn’t have; fan anger was high at just the possibility that the Orioles were going to take Archie Bradley. If the O’s had reached down to select Taylor Guerrieri, a player who was higher ranked than Hobgood in a much stronger class, even the Sun probably would have called for MacPhail’s head. Fan expectations have changed, due in part to the media, and the Orioles have responded to those expectations, as has nearly all of baseball.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
And today, only the teams most immune to fan opinion don’t always go big in the draft, and every team in baseball drafts Boras clients and makes overslot deals. They have to. The fans demand it.
I guess the only thing that I’m saying is that teams invest in the draft not because the fans demand it, but because it’s an efficient usage of resources in order to build a good team. The fact that fans like it and demand is an added bonus. I think fan expectations have changed because of the media (e.g., the turn out for Wieter’s debut was kind of amazing, but I guess there was a lot hoopla for Ben McDonald’s debut as well). But I don’t think those fan expectations affect how teams value moves. Teams value moves based on baseball sense for the most part. If those moves happen to line up with fan expectations, that’s an added bonus.
Folksy literate type.
Eh
The thing is, the draft is still something of a crapshoot. For example, in the same draft that the Orioles picked Matt Hobgood, the Angels picked Mike Trout in the first round, and payed him a bonus that was less than half that of Hobgood. The transition is from when these players are hyped prospects, like Wieters, to when they were drafted. And as often as not, elite prospects like Trout or Jason Heyward or Jay Bruce aren’t top ten picks. Teams know this too – they know that they can end up paying a lot more for the highest rated talent, while it is not all that likely that they are even the most valuable player taken in the first round. They know that Matt Hobgood isn’t 50% more likely to be a top prospect or a star than Mike Trout was. There are other reasons why they pay.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
It is a crapshoot
but as a whole, the draft is a major scam for young players. So many players provide value beyond their draft bonus and salary.
Folksy literate type.
I think you are making a leap ...
… by attributing these things to the fans.
It seems far more likely to me that it was the success of organizations who paid attention to the draft that forced other teams to do so. People like Law and Lewis can be credited with shining a light on this success. But to credit the fans for forcing teams to do so is a stretch, in my opinion.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
it's the same with defense
teams are now realizing the value of run prevention. they’re doing it because it helps teams win games not because fans like seeing good defense so much that they called for it. if anything, fans like offense and that’s actually been down.
Folksy literate type.
The problem is
do Reimold jerseys outsell Guerrero jerseys? I think there are plenty of stupid fans that think Vlad is having a decent season (there are enough comments on here about his hustle and batting average to confirm that).
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
you can't even buy a reimold jersey unless you order a customized one at mlb.com.
Folksy literate type.
I thought they had the shirts at the stadium, not sure if they do anymore
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
they had reimold shirts at the stadium?
i’m really surprised if they did because he’s been in the minors for most of the year.
Folksy literate type.
they had em last year until the end of the season.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s my thinking, I asked one of my friends the other day if he could now admit that Vlad sucks. he said “look at his average! he’s doing fine!” I swear I nearly smacked him. unbelievable.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
They probably don't
…but if they did, they would notice.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Although I guess
if a smarter media makes the fans smarter then Reimold jerseys would outsell Guerrero jerseys.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Did you say that Angelos listens to the fans?
Because if he did, we’d have a fucking winning team! Or he’d sell it. Artie Moreno listens to Angels fans, Mark Cuban listens to Mavs fans. What’s the point? Both those teams ALWAYS post winning seasons.
by miskatonic86 on Jul 30, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
This basically articulates...
…what I said in an obscenity long comment I posted in the Birds Up, O’s Down this week, but with more detail and with better articulation. Well done. Rec’d.
The most frustrating part for me
is that the Orioles do not seem to understand, much less embrace, the fact that you need guys who get on base in order to have a good offense. I mean, the team leader in runs scored (not a perfect stat, certainly) is a guy who has hit 7th most of the year and is currently sitting at .227. And he’s way ahead of everyone else – 9 runs ahead of the next best guys. Reynolds has scored 19 more runs than Guerrero, who has hit cleanup every day (except interleague). Because Reynolds gets on base. Markakis seems to have forgotten how to take a walk, and no one else on the team ever really knew how to in the first place. That’s not a great way to score runs and get other teams’ starters out of games.
Here’s a fun stat:
Players with 50+ walks:
Bal – Reynolds (50)
NYY – Swisher (54)
Bos – Pedroia (63)
Not so bad, right?
Players with 25+ walks:
Bal – Reynolds
NYY – Swisher, Martin, Teixeira, Rodriguez, Gardner, Granderson, Posada
Bos – Pedroia, Gonzalez, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Drew, Ortiz
I mean, we play them enough, how can we not learn anything?
by Reboulet's Moustache on Jul 13, 2011 11:53 AM EDT reply actions
Look
At the quality of hitters, and how careful teams are to NOT pitch to those guys; then ask why Orioles see so many fewer bad pitches out of the strike zone; look not at walks, but at the SO’s, the O’s strike out WAY too much. That’s why walks are so low, nobody is afraid of the next guy in line, too easy to strike out. Posada sticks out and the Yanks would love to replace him.
I said this to you before, but you really need to get over the strikeouts
Also, you might be interested to know that the Orioles have struck out 595 times. The league average is 605. AL teams that have struck out more than the Orioles: Indians (47-42), Tigers (49-43), Mariners (43-49), Rays (49-41), Angels (50-42), Blue Jays (45-47) , Red Sox (55-35). The Yankees are just below the Orioles with 8 less.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
What about strike outs per plate appearance?
not that I disagree with you (I don’t), but I would assume better offenses get more PAs and more opporunities to k.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jul 13, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The O's K-rate is 17.7% - that is 11th-lowest in MLB.
So that’s not great but it’s not terrible.
The lowest is 15.0% (Rangers) and the highest is 21.8% (Padres).
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 13, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I always just stick to AL
I don’t know why, I guess because those teams are generally facing the same competition. anyway, the only team in the AL with a lower K% that was on my comment above is the Red Sox with 16.8%
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
I care less about strikeouts and more about first pitch swings
If we could see a stat about how often players on teams swing at the first pitch, I am guessing there might be a correlation with OBP.
I care more about scoring runs
I get a headache reading all the stats that people throw out these days.
Baseball is a simple game. Score more than the other team.
"Have a good time...all the time." - Viv Savage
That's a fair point
EME just posted the numbers while I was commenting, but I will say that the difference between the team in the AL with the most PA (Boston) and the team in the AL with the least PA (MIN) is 231. Divide that out over 90 games and it’s about 2.5 PA/G
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
The problem
is not that opposing pitchers throw strikes to the Orioles because they’re not afraid of the hitters, the problem is that the opposing pitchers do not throw strikes to (a lot of) the Orioles because they know that they’ll swing at them anyway. I’d gladly have the team strike out even more if that meant that they were seeing more pitches and laying off of sliders in the dirt and other balls outside of the zone.
by Reboulet's Moustache on Jul 13, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
so...
it’s really not strikeouts as an absolute number, but pitches seen per plate appearance.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Jul 13, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think so, sort of.
I mean, if you take more pitches, you will be taking more strikes and more balls, so I would think that you might have an increase in strikeouts as well as walks. But most of the time, if you hit a pitch out of the strike zone, you’re going to end up with a ground out or a weak pop up anyway, so you’re better off taking those and waiting for a strike. And, if the pitcher doesn’t throw a strike, just take the walk and get on base for someone else.
This is obviously easier said than done, and I don’t want to make it sound like I think it’s easy to lay off a slider a few inches outside, but I’d like to see the organization as a whole emphasize plate discipline and swinging at the right pitches, not just pitches that you think you can reach. When we bring in a new hitting coach, I’d like him to say that he’s going to preach patience and making the pitcher throw you your pitch rather than that the team needs to be more aggressive at the plate. I think you need to be patient enough to work the count, and then be aggressive when the pitcher needs to throw a fastball for a strike.
Of course, if I knew how to teach that, I’d be raking in the dough as a coach somewhere instead of watching someone walk on 4 pitches and then see the next hitter swing at the first pitch.
by Reboulet's Moustache on Jul 13, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
What are you talking about?
You think guys are walking Swisher, Martin, Gardner, and Posada because they’d rather pitch to the guy behind them? They are being walked because they don’t swing at balls. Swinging at balls is why the Orioles don’t walk. It has very little to do with strikeouts except that strikeouts are higher because the Orioles swing at so many balls.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
That's how I always thought it worked.
If you are selective about what you swing at, you are more likely to see more pitches and get more walks.
Based on what I read here, as an organization, Baltimore apparently stresses making contact over being selective.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
Great post
Remember when everyone was lauding us for bringing on MacPhail? How’d that turn out?
Looking back I hate to even admit that I had so much faith in him. The Cubs cast-offs, the multi-year deals to shitty relievers, the huge money for “stop-gap” players who create more gaps than they stop.
And yet I have the feeling that MacPhail will be back next year.
"Wouldn't it be cool to win for Baltimore? Wouldn't it make you happy if New York was mad? If Philly was mad or Boston was mad? Wouldn't that feel good?"
--Adam Jones
Well, if sucking in 2011 is what it takes to get rid of MacPhail, then so be it
Of course, Angelos’ immortality poses other problems.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
Following this team makes the news seem uplifting
'If I was pitching the next game, I would hit him all four at-bats' - Dylan Bundy
I'm with you James
I think whatever happens with the Orioles over the next six months will be not only interesting, but also incredibly important to the overall health of the franchise.
And I promise that, while my voice may be little, I will demand for the right moves as much as I can.
Also
It isn’t unlucky that we have so few runs scored with a relatively higher OPS. That is what happens when two of your worst hitters bat 3 and 4 for most of the season, and your best hitter bats 7th.
Yes
it says a lot when fans think the ‘best hitter’ isn’t Jones or Markakis but the guy who strikes out twice as often as he gets a hit and, yes, gets walks but rarely advances the runner. Yes, the best hitter is 4th on the team on advancing the runner. Or is it sixth now?
Stop, just stop.
I swear, STOP.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
by Stacey on Jul 13, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It bears keeping in mind that A) walks advance the runner unless there is an open base and B) advancing runners < not making outs. Good hitters are in the business of not making outs first and foremost.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
by James F on Jul 13, 2011 12:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why does it matter how often he strikes out if he has the best OBP on the team and the 2nd-best SLG?
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 13, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
rec'd
Mark Reynolds is who we thought he was! (Denny Green voice)
by IggesRule13 on Jul 13, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there a dislike button?
Look at his OBP!
"Wouldn't it be cool to win for Baltimore? Wouldn't it make you happy if New York was mad? If Philly was mad or Boston was mad? Wouldn't that feel good?"
--Adam Jones
this is ludicrous...
when a guy who has been hitting 6th or 7th most of the season leads the team in rbi, that tells me that he has been quite successful in advancing runners and the guys in the traditional rbi gift slots in the lineup are not.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Jul 13, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What says a lot
is that there are still fans who think the best hitter IS Markakis or Jones and not the guy who strikes out a lot. Those are the people who have no fucking clue what’s going on.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
by O'sFan21 on Jul 13, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
remember when everyone thought Vlad was our best hitter after a month cause his BA was something like .298?
This is exactly what James talked about when he said this:
The Royals became a smarter team that emphasized a strong farm system in part because smart people like Joe Posnanski and Rany Jazayerli became the leading journalists following the team. They helped their fellow Royals fans become smarter about baseball, and helped lead that team towards making smarter baseball decisions to satisfy their fan base.
I admit to being a person who was semi happy with vlad
when he was hitting over .300 because at least he was doing better then the alternative which was not hitting anything. but I am still learning the stats and he hasn’t even maintained that. Also, its less on vlad but if he were hitting a lot of singles in the 7 hole id be more happy than at the clean up spot.
The Royals became a smarter team that emphasized a strong farm system in part because smart people like Joe Posnanski and Rany Jazayerli became the leading journalists following the team.
I must say that I’m very skeptical of a cause and effect here. They emphasized the farm system because Dayton Moore was a farm system guru in Atlanta. I suspect Joe Po and Rany had nothing to do with THE PLAN.
Folksy literate type.
Same with the Mariners
Writers like Dave Cameron and Jason Churchill did the same for the Mariners, helping to end the Bill Bavasi era and allowing Jack Zduriencik the freedom to make bold moves to reshape their franchise.
And I really don’t think Cameron or Churchhil, two writers I really like, had anything to do with ending Bavasi’s reign of terror. Bavasi lost his job because his teams sucked.
Folksy literate type.
Well, there was that too.
As i mention above, I can’t see GM’s paying a lot of attention to what sports writers say.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
Same here.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
although
I guess James could be saying David Glass hired a farm system guru because of guys like Joe Po and Rany. I really don’t know the thought process behind Glass’ hiring of Moore. I do know that Moore was widely viewed as a hot shot, upcoming GM candidate and would have been on the short list of any team looking for a GM. From what I’ve heard from Braves fans, Moore had actually over taken Frank Wren, who was immediately viewed as John Schuerholz’s heir after he left the Orioles, as the next GM of the Braves until he left for KC.
Folksy literate type.
Also, please look at these guys in real life, at a ballpark is helpful...
I saw the Atlanta series and the ENTIRE crowd wasn’t scared of Markakis, Jones, or Wieters, but they were like “This Reynolds guy is CLUBBING the ball… WALK HIM!”
I know this isn’t saber quality info, but the argument of fear and walking to avoid the best hitters putting one in the outfield bleachers is valid, imo.
Birdland and Buck both start with B... coincidence? I think not.
by Birdland in NC on Jul 13, 2011 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
But Reynolds walked a ton before he started clubbing the ball
he walks a lot because he doesn’t swing at balls. It’s really very simple.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I don't know why
But he loves swinging at 1st pitch sliders. Mark’s biggest problem imo is that he swings through pitches right down the middle! makes me kick the dog every time i see it.
As long as he doesn't swing at balls
and hits a lot of HRs I don’t give a shit.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
he’s top 10 in the league in walks, that’s valuable no matter how often he K’s.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Article
I find myself constantly re-evaluating what “rock bottom” is with this organization, and I usually see things with an initial positive spin.
I have been arguing with my brother about the following question “what organization is worse off, top to bottom, than the Baltimore Orioles?” He says none, I say the Dodgers. Any thoughts?
John S West Jr
by Adam double bubble on Jul 13, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t know that this is a fruitful thing to think about. But I will answer as best I can: the Dodgers are in a really bad way because money has been taken out of the scouting and player development budget and those years can’t be recovered, nor can the dodgers undo this year’s draft. They are also leveraged to the hilt, and have many outstanding debts, as well as the continuing legal battles and bankruptcy to be resolved.
But they also have two of the best young pitchers in baseball, one of the best hitters in baseball, and a decent amount of prospect depth at the upper levels. And they are one of baseball’s most historic franchises in an enormous market. I don’t know how to compare them to the Orioles, but the situation in Dodgerland isn’t all that horrible going forward. Yet.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
by James F on Jul 13, 2011 12:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
+
they have been in the playoffs recently and they place in NL West so they will always have a shot.
who are you counting other than Kershaw as one of their "best young pitchers in baseball"?
carolina in my mind...
What about the good stuff you get from "rubby"?
sorry, I’ll grow up now.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jul 13, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Billingsley
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Jul 13, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm going to have to disagree on both of those guys
billingsley turns 27 this month so i wouldn’t qualify him as “young” anymore. at 22, de la rosa does have potential to be a solid 2/3 starter, but he doesn’t have the same upside to be an ace as other young pitchers that haven’t even reached the majors yet like mike minor, teheran, jacob turner, kyle gibson, shelby miller, etc.
however, kershaw is a beast, no doubt about that
carolina in my mind...
I did mean Billingsley
And I think that when your seasonal age is 26 (meaning that he was 26 for more than half the season) you qualify as young. He’s a year and nine months older than Jake Arrieta.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
At 26/27
Dude could potentially have 6-8 solid years left him. I’d consider that youngish for a pitcher.
Not to mention that they play in the NL West.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
So, is the answer
that the Orioles are the worst organization? I think our division is the final nail in the coffin.
John S West Jr
by Adam double bubble on Jul 13, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We have the raw elements for baseball in Baltimore to be successful.
But we have an owner who cannot act on the potential. Even the brief period of success under him resulted in tremendous acrimony. I rationalize the current plight by thinking that Angelos is getting exactly what he deserves. Perhaps he really doesn’t care as long as the bottom line comes out in the black. But still, there will be some celebration when he dies and plenty of sighs of relief, which is sad. In the meanwhile, I just hope the apple falls far from the tree. It happened with the Irsays.
I don't think you can say Angelos only cares about making money off the Orioles.
I think he wants to have winning baseball in Baltimore, and he wants to be remembered as the guy who made it happen, and he doesn’t know how to do it. It took him until he hired MacPhail to realize that he doesn’t have any special insight on how to have a winning baseball team. Now, we can certainly question whether AM was the right guy to hire or whether AM is the guy to keep. But I think that hire was signifying that the Angelos that the likes of WNST constantly criticize was receding into the shadows. He has kept to this.
I guess one might fear he will give up on AM and go back to his old ways, but I don’t know about that.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 13, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You didn't read thre 'perhaps' qualifier
I think he wants to win to help clear up his legacy, but I can also envision him being so disgusted with baseball that he’s resigned to the current state of affairs. The sad thing is, it’s all self inflicted.
Just curious
How do we know how much to blame on AM, how much to blame on Angelos, how much to blame on other organizational deficiencies, and how much to blame on players just not being as good as we hoped? It seems like people are putting a whole lot of weight on AM’s shoulders and I am not convinced that it is justified yet. I understand that he was supposedly brought in to turn the team around and that he has made remarks in the media suggesting that the O’s are not going to take the steps to turn it around (e.g. not branching out into the international market, etc.). But I really have no idea if Angelos isn’t up to his old ways of controlling how the team is run and AM is simply parroting the party line.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
We've gone over this over and over
Angelos has been a constant to the rot. If you’ve ever worked in a dysfunctional place and seen the positive change that can occur if new head honcho demands it, you’ll know what impact one person can have. The opposite is also true. One person can horribly impact a functional organization. The constant churn under Angelos is an extremely strong indicator he’s unable to to institute an effective organization.
Angelo’s adverse impact can be something as simple as not allowing a few key pieces of deadwood to be cleared. As for the international investment, it could be his stubborn insistence that it not be done. He needn’t be actively ‘engaged’ to have an adverse impact.
This is exactly why I am so confused over the "fire AM" mantra.
What evidence do we have that a new GM will be able to change anything at all? As you said, this team appears to rot from the head and the single constant throughout this endless streak of ineptitude is Angelos. Replacing managers, GMs, other coaches seems to be just an exercise in rearranging deck chairs.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
That's exactly what I said in the podcast
We were talking about if Andy MacPhail should be kept or released, and I said it didn’t matter because I have no faith in Angelos/the Orioles to hire someone better.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
I apologize for repeating. Haven't listened to the podcast yet :)
Mother, did it need to be so high.
no it's cool
I wasn’t trying to chastise you ;)
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
I somewhat agree with that, but...
It’s a gamble I think is worth taking. If you’re living in a cardboard box and someone says, “Here are 100 boxes. 1 contains 100 million dollars, the others are empty. In order to open one of the boxes, you have to give up your cardboard box,” then you give up the cardboard box.
Sure, it's worth the gamble
I just wouldn’t get my hopes up.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
Well, like you, I don't have faith that we'd pull in someone great
I have less faith that we’ll become great under MacPhail.
It seems that with Angelos at the helm
We are choosing between 100 boxes, all of them empty.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
Could be karma ...
… for being a class-action lawyer.
See: John Edwards
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
not to nitpick an amazingly well written piece
but shouldn’t it be:
and the sight of the warehouse beyondleftright field
cause if the warehouse is in left field i guess i’ve been looking at the stadium backwards for years…
carolina in my mind...
Gah. Yeah, you’re right. In more ways than one. Don’t think I can edit from my phone, but if Stacey or someone can do it, please do…
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
by James F on Jul 13, 2011 12:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If you wrote that entire article on your phone
I give you 18 recs because I can’t even type a coherent sentence on my phone in less than 20 minutes.
I'd rather have double warehouse
Than that ugly Hilton.
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Jul 13, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Baaahaha
Exactly what i wanted to do but I’m too busy to mess with Aviary
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Jul 13, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It is hard for me to find the meaning in being an Orioles fan this season.
First, I really like this article. It should be nominated for the best post for this site for the SBN awards. That said, I’d prefer that it was written at the end of the season. I’ll admit that what I’m about to say is a bit overly optimistic, but there’s still a half of season of baseball left. There’s still almost 3 months left to see how young guys develop. if you’re looking to find meaning in being an Orioles this season. THAT’S YOUR REASON.
Things look really shitty right now. Some guy whose name I can’t even pronounce is in the rotation along with Mitch Atkins. And Weak Sauce recently took a turn in the rotation. But a lot of things can happen in three months of baseball. There’s still plenty of time for Tillman and Matusz to figure things out and finish strong giving us some hope for 2012. There’s still hope the O’s will trade Guthrie for Alonso. I see no reason to be pessimistic about Britton despite one horrible start in Boston. That’s 3/5 of the rotation right there. As far as the position players go, if you want to find meaning in the season, you watch to see Adam Jones and Matt Wieters continue to get better to see if there’s hope for 2012. You hope Nick Markakis goes back to being Nick Markakis. You hope Buck gets his head out of his ass and plays Nolan Reimold everyday and we see some of the 2009 Nolan. Now you can say a number of pessimistic things at this point like a strong 3 months from whoever doesn’t mean shit and a number of other valid points. But let’s let the season play out. THAT’S ALL I’M SAYING. I want to find some meaning in the games that I watch and the time that I spend. I need to find to some meaning because I’m a human being who doesn’t believe in nihilism (despite what people may think). Lastly, I NEED a reason to visit Camden Chat. If I have a no meaning as a fan, why come here? To talk about cupcakes and bacon? To vent? No, if I don’t have hope, then venting is not possible. Venting is only possible with meaning and hope. Look, if we see more of the same ole the next three months, and I see the front office continue to do stupid, 20th century things, fine, I’ll always be a fan of baseball but uninterested in the Orioles. That makes me sad and I don’t want to go to that place until the last minute.
Folksy literate type.
by birdman on Jul 13, 2011 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Well put
Let’s not forget that we have been unlucky as well, as James alluded to with the OPS analysis. We have been bitten hard by the injury bug. B-Rob and Luke needed to perform well for us to have any chance at a decent record this year. Matusz, Hardy, Duscherer (remember him?) etc. We limped to the All Star Break this year, and I think we all saw disaster looming with that horrible road trip against 3 excellent teams to end the first half.
Yes, I know the people who weren’t hurt underperformed too and the despicable rotation we have at the moment is due to poor performance and not injury. But I think I’ll save my despair until at least after the trade deadline. I want to see Reimold get out of “SSS” range. I want to see us trade for some prospects or flat out cut Lee and/or Vlad within the next month. If none of that happens, I’ll join the pity party and probably stop watching.
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Jul 13, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just how I feel
It is a great depressing article. I still choose try to be optimistic a bit longer for all these reasons birdman put out here.
"The first time we went to Yankee Stadium, I screamed at Derek Jeter from the dugout. Our guys are thinking, 'Wow, he's screaming at Derek Jeter.' Well, he's always jumping back from balls just off the plate. I know how many calls that team gets -- and yes, he [ticks] me off." -Buck Showalter
Frankly, I can stomach watching the kids teams lose rather than the O's.
I’d rather watch a mediocre kids soccer, lacrosse, swim , etc. team than the O’s. So I do.
Being a fan of the O’s means you follow a team mostly out of habit because you like baseball (and in my case because Baltimore is in my blood). However, they are relegated to the background while you wonder how far you can disengage. I’m past the point of wasting time watching a bunch of bumbling while hoping that a few of the young guys make progress. Make some progress, show up in the big leagues and perform, and I’ll watch more. Oh, and even visit the park once in a while.
Mark Reynolds sunflower seed pic
Has been immortalized on an open thread at Orioles Hangout. Very funny.
by Matt P in CT on Jul 13, 2011 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Super Mario Reynolds and Reynolds on the Titanic.
Words cannot express how awesome those are.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
I wish we were debating about something more fun
Like who’s going to get to 40 HRs first, or who deserves to be named AL MVP Wieters or Jones. Maybe in a few years… Sigh Heart Breaks..again
If you don't think that this is the greatest song ever, I will fight you. That's no lie
by Ned from Lex Vegas on Jul 13, 2011 2:32 PM EDT reply actions
A couple responses
1. In answer to your title – What does it mean to be a fan of a team going nowhere? To me it means you are a fan. If you have never seen a team through troubled times and agonized over the defeats as well as cheered the victory’s you are probably a bandwagoner.
2. Your post reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day, which was that I have had fun learning more about the baseball statistics and it has given me a way to be more connected to my team. But I do miss when I was younger and the innocence that came with not knowing as much about the minor league teams and baseball stats. I miss those innocent summers when every player called up was exciting and a potential superstar. You hear a guy’s name announced for his first at-bat or first start and you get very excited for him.
What does it mean to be a fan of a team going nowhere?
Being a fan of a team going nowhere means a constant struggle between unfounded optimism and unfounded pessimism. You see Adam Jones make a spectacular catch to rob extra bases, hit a home run, work a couple of walks while laying off on sliders down and away and think “He’s finally turning the corner. The superstar center fielder we all dreamed about is finally on his way.” Then you see him a week later, not getting to a ball, striking out and making first-pitch outs on his way to an 0-4 night and think “We were bilked again. He’s never going to be more than a serviceable part; a 7th hitter on a contender, maybe. He’s not the future we envisioned.”
You watch every game with a mix of excitement and fear. Is tonight the night we get no-hit? Do we give up 15 runs? Does our pitcher not make it out of the 1st inning? Will the young guys do something amazing? Will one of our pitchers make the other team’s star look foolish? Will we absolutely clobber a pitcher half the league wanted to trade for?
You want your team to win, so so much, but whenever something goes wrong, you know that it’s just the first pebble in an avalanche. Every positive act is celebrated with the sooty tinge of knowing it can easily be erased in a second.
You hope for the best and prepare for the worst and know that eventually, something will have to change. No team is terrible forever and even if it’s just a small blip of warmth on a long, cold winter of life, that will have to sustain you. After a while, you may become numb to it all. Block out the few positives to soften the repeated blows of all the negatives.
But, in the distance, you can hear the rumble of thunder and wonder “Will this be the time we catch lightning in a bottle?” even if it’s likely to strike you dead.
by Holymittens on Jul 13, 2011 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
worst case scenario for the Orioles -
lightning strikes and we are caught standing under a tree and we just gave our bottle away.
Rec.
You nailed it with the opening sentence and kept going strong after that.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
I've expressed that some of your comments are depressing before James
And this is not far off, but I think it is bittersweet in some way. We, some of you much more than myself, are hopelessly devoted to the Orioles. We lose, lose, and then lose some more, but we all still come back for opening day talking about “this is the year” for .500, development, etc. I agree that this season has been a lot harder to stomach, I actually haven’t caught a game in a month, because I just feel like I need a break.
Wherever this train without a conductor is going, I’m not getting off.
Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller
Very well written.
My first thought was to talk about growing up as a fan of perennially bad teams – the Senators and the Redskins. Every year you had renewed hope this year would be different. Every new addition was seen as an improvement. Maybe this year you’d get the breaks or catch a little of the magic. And when your team lost again, you weren’t surprised, but when they won you were feeling fantasic. But, maybe that was from being a kid.
I particularly feel the part about how lately the team has just become painful to watch. One of the teams you use as an example of being better – the Mariners – are just about as painful to watch and that’s exactly what I don’t do. Watch. Maybe the answer to your question is "It means that you find other things to invest you time and energy into – until your team shows it is deserving of what you once gave it. You can still be a fan. You can still enjoy any successes they achieve, however limited. You just don’t give them your heart and soul. Not until they prove worthy of it.
The only way a fan base can truely impact a sports team is by withdrawing its support. At some point ownership figures out how to be successfull (unlikely in this case) or they get tired of losing money and sell the team. Right now I’d say Baltimore’s best hope is the reports I’ve seen that Angelos sons are not that fired up about owning the team. If true, we can hope they sell as soon as the old man croaks.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
Better days will come, you'll see; and we'll be around to see them.
Don't forget - sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming head on
And that's the thing
It’s cyclical in nature. We will get better. Heck, we can’t get much worse. “When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose”. The nature of being a fan is that, by definition, you’re a fanatic, which implies an irrational love for your team. And when we do get better, how sweet will that be! That’s why I stick with ’em through the heartbreaks and frustrations. You hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
I don’t know the answer, but I’m smart enough to realize that. It feels like it’s owner-related, but it’s difficult to fire the owner. But, I do know that when what you’re doing doesn’t work (repeatedly), you try something different.
Youth may come and go, but immaturity can last a lifetime.
Joe Jordan, David Stockstill and John Stockstill Impact
i realize we were losing long before Joe Jordan arrived in November of 2004 as the Orioles Director of Scouting. I realize we were losing long before the Stockstill brothers were in the position as the Director of Player Development.
Over the past few months, I’ve been thinking how much of the “blame” should be directed at these individuals and our inability to develop stars. Is it poor drafting? Is it our Minor League instructor’s inability to develop talent? Is it our Major League staff who tinkers with player approaches when they reach the Majors (with disastrous results)? I hear rumors they’ve moved where Britton sets up on the rubber and adjusted his grip on his fastball. I hear they’ve also adjusted Matusz grip on his fastball. It is obvious, neither player has the velocity and movement they had when they first came up. Whether any of the rumors are true, it is frightening that it seems every pitcher in “The Calvary” (with the exception of Arietta) seems to have drastically lost velocity and movement over time since being recalled. I see a guy like Matt Wieters appraoch at the plate be drastically different than what he used at Georgia Tech and in the Minors. I see Nick Markakis make no forward progress and is actually regressing. The only consistent thing about Adam Jones is his ability to be inconsistent.
It makes me wonder whether any of our players would have been “stars” had they come up in other organizations. I shudder to think we’re hanging our hats on Machado and Schoop (who are 3 years away) and the players they may be when that time comes. If history repeats itself with our ability to develop players, we’re in a world of trouble.
At my work desk, I have an Orioles schedule I update after every game. I have an Orioles Bobblehead. I have a copy of the SI coverpage with Matt Wieters on it. I have Orioles wallpaper on my computer desktop. I have an “Orioles Country” stop sign hung. I have a poster of the Ripken family. And I’m surrounded by Red Sox and Yankee fans. I have a teenage son who watches/listens to almost every game and keeps asking me when things are going to get better. I few years ago, I told him to point to 2011 and 2012. Now, I don’t know what to tell him. As a lifetime Oriole fan, I’m not going anywhere. I hope he doesn’t either.
Judging the front office...
This team stinks right now, and might just stink, period. It’s hard to see much reason for optimism for this season or the next few seasons. A lot of the players we were depending on just don’t seem like they’re going to make it.
The thing that puzzles me about these players is that we weren’t alone in our estimations of them. Most baseball people thought highly of Wieters, Jones, Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta, and Britton. It’s not like MacPhail was saying, “Hey, these guys are awesome!” and everyone else said, “No, you’re nuts.” People outside the organization raved about these guys. If we’re bad at picking players, then so are a lot of other people.
Yes, our free agent signings recently haven’t done so well, but those are fairly minor problems compared with the disappointment of the farm system.
So what’s wrong? Are we bad at developing players? Really unlucky in that more than our fair share of players go bust? Getting decent prospects, but not enough of them?
Maybe this last one. I think about the Rays drafting a small army in the first round this year, and the Orioles drafting once. We got a guy that everyone agrees is great, most prospects don’t end up reaching the starry-eyed dreams we set for them. The Rays got a bushel of such people. Maybe we need to do that too.
From what I read, It is the Fans that are the losers.
I don’t know exactly what a fan is, but I know it is not defined by the comments I read here. No denying that play has not met hopes and expectations. But dwelling on it, and giving up… I just don’t have words for it.
A fan is not someone who only likes their team when it wins. A fan likes the team and players on it and empathizes with them. Supports them. Wishes them well… looks forward to improvement.
All I see here is controlled whining. Oh, poor us, our team isn’t winning in the toughest division in baseball. Maybe it is because the fans are sub-par that the performance and confidence aren’t there? In football, they call it the 12th man.
There are so many things that are right. McPhail is a brilliant man. Showalter is a winning manager. We’ve got a youthful pitching staff with tons of promise. We have several core players (Weiters, Jones, Markakis, Scott) who are underperforming, and tired of losing themselves. We have a promising IF in the making, with Bell, Machado, Hoes and Mahoney. Every one of those players will not be a superstar — the odds are against it. But it looks promising. MacPhail seemed to me to take a stab at making things work NOW by bringing in some older, proven talent, and I can’t say I saw those choices as bad — in fact, read back here on the CC and you’ll find a much different tone.
I don’t know if any of you are really fans. I’ve been an Os fan since 1970. I didn’t even live in Maryland… I lived in NY. There was something about the spirit of the team that I admired… probably The Orioles Way. Maybe it was because that in the early days the Yankees WERE the Baltimore Orioles. Every one of my friends were Yankee and Met fans. In the early 70s, the Yanks were going through one of their droughts — and there have not been many. Then they stunk all the way through the 80s. Then Buck showed up, and the team was ready for a turn-around… and they did.
I think we saw glimmers of what can be in the course of the second half in 2010. That was when a lot of us thought it could immediately be different and we’d see a lot more wins. It didn’t turn out that way in half a season… so you are all ready to give up — or have. Expect the same to happen with the players on the field.
I will not represent myself as an Orioles fan amidst the likes of what I am reading here — short-sighted pseudo-fans reeking of the need for immediate gratification. maybe if you had a little more backbone and could weather a storm and stick up for YOUR TEAM, they might gather something resembling momentum from the spirit.
Shoulder the blame of giving up on your team, and stop blaming them.
I'm glad you've enjoyed watching this team.
i certainly applaud your dedication.
Folksy literate type.
I will not represent myself as an Orioles fan amidst the likes of what I am reading here — short-sighted pseudo-fans reeking of the need for immediate gratification. maybe if you had a little more backbone and could weather a storm and stick up for YOUR TEAM, they might gather something resembling momentum from the spirit.
BTW, I have been a Orioles fan through all the losing since 1998. I am not alone in that sense. There are a core set of posters here who are not “short-sighted pseudo-fans reeking of the need for immediate gratification.” We have stuck up for this team through thick and thin.
Folksy literate type.
Birdman...
Saw your last post, and probably was the most on-target to my idea. I just hate seeing all the naysaying when I know there was a lot more optimism not long ago. I don’t want to come here and read whining… It is so academic. What is a real solution? It isn’t firing a manager or GM to make more turmoil. It isn’t positive to say “we stink” or even point to specifics why things stink.
How do they get better, specifically… positively. What can go right? What are the positives we see? How can the positives define where to build? There are thousands of fans, and maybe we see something the management coaches, trainers, and players may not.
This is mostly like a huge pitty party… and that is pittiful.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 13, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you even read the post that you're commenting on?
It wasn’t just academic whining – it proposed actual solutions.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I think this is what annoys me the most. it’d be one thing if all we ever did was bitch about how bad this team was, but that’s just not the case. the mods here are very good at what they do and, either through podcast or write-up, offer viable, strategically sound solutions to the problems that the Orioles face.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
If we aren't supposed to blame the team for being bad, who exactly are we supposed to blame?
Ourselves? The Orioles are bad because we’re not faithful enough fans? The Orioles feel like an abusive SO at times, but I’m not THAT much in an abusive cycle where I’m going to blame myself for their failures.
I want the Orioles to be good as much as anybody else. They aren’t good and they could be and that annoys a lot of people here to different degrees.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 13, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
you want them to be good?
then stop whining and demanding it. Everyone can’t win. You need a plan… you need dedication. Saying “I want more wins, damnit” isn’t dedication, it is a baby crying for a bottle.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 13, 2011 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we have been demanding it.
This isn’t just a pitty party. We regularly offer our opinions on how to improve the situation.
Folksy literate type.
I'd also like to point out that this isn't a pitty party
because I have no fucking idea what a pitty party is.
my mom used to use that idiom
having a pity party means that you’re pouting etc
unless you were just highlighting that “pity” was misspelled
Have you been reading the posts above?
Your characterizations are inaccurate.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
Of course everyone can't win. We know this well because we've been losers 13 years running.
I would like for the Orioles to stop sucking. They have failed at doing this. Thus, part of the Orioles fan experience right now is a lot of frustration. I think you will find that the few good times are wildly celebrated here, all the moreso because of how rare they are. There just aren’t very many of them.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 13, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
What the fuck are you talking about?
Everybody on this site constantly point out what the plan should be – signing all of their draft picks, trading high on people like Hardy and Jones, increasing the international scouting and signing budgets, etc.
Where are you getting the ridiculous idea that people on here are in the “I want more wings, damnit” category? You obviously have spent very little time reading the site.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I, for one, could really go for some wings
by kba26 on Jul 13, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I may be newish here but I am pretty sure just saying I want more wins damnit
will get you in hot water because most of the folks here work very hard to put together data driven specific examples of how the team can improve and look down on generalizations and gut reactions. The very nature of being on this blog means the fans haven’t given up on the team. I hope all of our players hit 4 home runs a night and I wish them all the best but it isn’t giving up when you see our rotation and look at other rotations and you mention hmmm our rotation could use some working on.
This.
Being critical of an organization with losing seasons since 1997 is hardly being a “nay-sayer” or engaging in some sort of knee-jerk response. There is clearly a systemic problem and fans discussing how to deal with this problem is part of what makes the people here passionate about O’s baseball. If cc’ers were just fair weather fans, no one would be here right now.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
A fan is not someone who only likes their team when it wins. A fan likes the team and players on it and empathizes with them. Supports them. Wishes them well… looks forward to improvement.
I support the hell out of the Orioles. I watch the games, I buy the gear, I’d say that I’m an extremely devoted individual, but at this moment, I’m extremely dissatisfied with the bullshit product that we field every day. is that allowed? I’m not someone who can just put up with it because they’re my team, if anything, enabling this shit is what got us here in the first place.
Maybe it is because the fans are sub-par that the performance and confidence aren’t there? In football, they call it the 12th man.
nope, the Rays have no fans and do just fine.
McPhail is a brilliant man…
coulda fooled me. he’s an old-school baseball guy who’s made some solid trades and some really shitty free agent signings. do you really see Mahoney or Bell contributing in the future as everyday players? Bell doesn’t have enough plate discipline and it’s not exactly something you just kind of pick up in the minors. seems like two of the four you just mentioned are career AAAA players. it’s not a given obviously, but none of them outside of Machado are notable prospects. the only other position players I care about are Avery and Schoop.
MacPhail seemed to me to take a stab at making things work NOW by bringing in some older, proven talent, and I can’t say I saw those choices as bad — in fact, read back here on the CC and you’ll find a much different tone.
WHERE, WHERE WAS THE PROVEN TALENT? he had the chance to go get Victor Martinez and actually offered him a pay cut! he never ponied up and offered the big bucks, which would be fine, but in the end he scraped the very bottom of the barrel for two players on the extreme downswing.
short-sighted pseudo-fans reeking of the need for immediate gratification. maybe if you had a little more backbone and could weather a storm and stick up for YOUR TEAM, they might gather something resembling momentum from the spirit.
immediate gratification? unbelievable. my entire fucking life I’ve followed this team’s every move. nothing’s going to change that, but you know what? sometimes it’s time to take the orange tinted glasses off to gain some perspective.
not gonna lie, I’m not really too high on you telling me how to be a fan.
oh, and it’s WIETERS. I before E and all that.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
“I’m not really too high on you telling me how to be a fan.”
you stink at being one now… can’t take a little criticism? There is more to being a fan than watching a winner. I never said everything was perfect… it just really doesn’t suck — and few of you seem to have perspective on that.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 13, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
seriously dude, I am fully aware that there is more to supporting a team than rejoicing when they win, it’s also being critical when they lose. and when they lose at a historic rate and refuse to do anything about it, (like cut international spending, refuse to go after good free agents, and generally fail at player development) it rubs me the wrong way.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
How can you seriously criticize him or any of us as being fair-weather fans?
Do you actually read the comments here? Regular commetners here follow the Orioles on a day-to-day basis. We do root for them through the bad. It’s what we’ve been doing since 1998. Hell, it’s the only thing I know as an Orioles fan. Saying that the Orioles are a miserable organization right now is not being a bad fan. It’s actually being a constructive fan. Are we really not supposed to say anything about the fact that our farm system is awful, we’re a non-entity in the international market, and we keep making horrible free agent decisions with predictable results?
Honestly - this is getting ridiculous
You obviously have no fucking clue what’s going on with the team or the organization or this site and then you come on here and lecture those of us who actually pay some attention? Fuck that shit. This blind optimism that you’re advocating is why the front office thinks that signing Vlad and Lee and Garret Fucking Atkins are going to fire up the fan base year after fucking year – because people like you actually get fired up about it rather than actually seeing it for what it is.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
not gonna lie, I was waiting for you to get in on this. someone needed to drop the hammer.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
In this situation
I really miss JP. He would be ripping this guy apart…
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
If you think a person is way off base ...
… why not ignore them rather then think about ripping them apart?
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
It's a fucking blog.
It would be absurdly boring if everybody just ignored comments they disagreed with.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
yeah,
but i’m not sure if this guy is interested in having a rational conversation with his posts. i suspect he’s more interested in lecturing people than having a discussion. i would rather ignore those people.
Folksy literate type.
Well fuck him if that's the case.
He seems to be arguing with some of the posts and not others.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I wouldn’t say he’s arguing at all. Arguing at least implies you’re taking the other person’s points seriously. He just replies with more pity party comments.
Folksy literate type.
This is true.
Well maybe if we weren’t having such a pity party!
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Its not something that I’d generally endorse, but sometimes you just need to try to tell someone that what they’re saying isn’t constructive or based on any visible fact
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 14, 2011 1:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree.
I also happen to think that civility is a habit worth maintaining.
One can manage both – make a point to someone and be civil about it.
See Stacey’s and Birdman’s comments to the same poster.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
This post ranks high on the unintentional comedy scale.
I personally like the lectures with utterly ridiculous accusations. The 12th man thing is a gem.
Bravo. Hope to see more of you in the future.
by drj on Jul 13, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
and more negativity and whining...
I guess you being a proponent of bashing and gnashing has helped a lot?
by Richard Lynch on Jul 13, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
this isn’t a fucking pep rally, it’s a blog. we exchange ideas here, that’s the entire point.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I am exchanging ideas...
I just happen to think the negativity, bashing and bawling are not productive. “A fan” show some spirit.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 13, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
well, i think you need a balance between criticism and finding bright points.
which i think this blog does very well.
Folksy literate type.
He wouldn't know
He obviously doesn’t read it.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
He wouldn't know
He obviously doesn’t read it.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
and if you need examples of bright points
I suggest you look at our MBP awards and every week we have a poster who notes good recent performances in “Bird Up, Bird Down.”
Folksy literate type.
no, you’re telling us not to have ideas contrary to yours and letting us know that if we don’t blindly follow the O’s to the ends of the earth that we’re terrible fans.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't you realize?
If we all just think positive thoughts then the shitty players on the field will become good ones!
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Has is occurred to you that you'e a sports fan chump?
Thae above is not negative. It’s a valid observation about a fairly weak post.
The O’s would love to have you in Baltimore to spend your money no matter what. They could run out an atrocious team forever and you’d loudly cheer. That’s just not logical.
But you are not near Baltimore, and I’ll wager you spend very few dollars on the Orioles. Yet you lecture the fans that actually do spend their money on the team with some rather shallow criticisms. That’s funny to me. I’m not being negative about the Orioles here. I’m getting a chuckle at your expense.
by drj on Jul 13, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is the same line of thinking
that leads people to say you aren’t patriotic if you disagree with choices the government makes. Caring about something as passionately as we do means you don’t just blindly and happily watch it be destroyed. If you think everything is hunky-dory, the FO can do no wrong, and this team brings you nothing but smiles and butterflies, then congrats. You don’t really, truly, personally care about the team you root for, and you are probably a whole lot more sane than we are because of it.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
by daveh873 on Jul 13, 2011 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
This post deserves a full-on FJM treatment. It really is a beaut. But let me address your closing remark:
Shoulder the blame of giving up on your team, and stop blaming them.
If any of us had given up on this team, this blog wouldn’t be here. This blog is proof that we haven’t given up on this team. We have stuck with the O’s (and will continue to) through 13 (going on 14) miserable seasons. Rather than quit, we have descended into the Inferno, all the way down to the 9th level.
The people who participate here (and on other O’s blogs) are truly dedicated to this team. We want to see them win. We discuss ways that that outcome can be brought about. 13 consecutive years of losing (with 4 of those under the current ‘brilliant GM’) is proof, in and of itself, that something is not working correctly with this team. Accepting the status quo is not an option. That would be an act of a person who has given up on this team.
I am the Frizzle Fry.
by PBR me ASAP! on Jul 13, 2011 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
loved that place, shame they had to shut it down. great note to go out on though,
Remember, the greatest intangible of all is love. Number two is grit.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Richard, you've been a fan since '70.
I’ve been one since the early 60’s myself. The big advantage we have is that we have seen success. It was easy to be a fan back then. The majority of people posting on here were born after ‘83 and have never celebrated a World Series victory. And yet, they’re still here. Discussing ways to make this team better. Sorry, but the ones you need to talk to are the ones who aren’t here. They’re the ones who are not truly fans. Sure, there’s frustration and negativity. A lot of it is warranted. But there’s a lot of discussion about who looks promising, what needs improvement, what other teams do right that we could emulate. Those are all positives.
That’s why I like this site.
Youth may come and go, but immaturity can last a lifetime.
short-sighted pseudo-fans reeking of the need for immediate gratification. maybe if you had a little more backbone and could weather a storm and stick up for YOUR TE
This approaching my 15,000th comment on a website dedicated to a team that hasn’t had a winning season since i 10 years old. To put things in perspective, I’ve just graduated law school. where the fuck do you get off accusing anyone on this site of not being able to weather a storm?
by kba26 on Jul 13, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
THANK YOU. telling someone how to be a fan is one of the absolute douchiest things you can do, there’s just no room for it.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 13, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
also, i guess if you had a kid with a problem, so he was addicted to crack
instead of getting him help and back on the right track, you’d keep encouraging him and propping him up for every “good” (i.e. normal and expected of responsible adults) thing he did?
Did somebody say something about "giving up"?????
In football, the volume of the crowd can have an actual impact – interfering with play calling. There is no such impact in baseball. And really, do you seriously think if Camden Yards was packed with a raucous crowd every night that this collection of players would be winning??? That is laughable.
3/4 of the promising infield that you mention is not considered promising by anybody that assesses players for a living.
It’s the Oriole Way not the “Orioles Way.”
You’re right though – those of who spend time considering the impact of the draft and international scouting and player development and know the system backwards and forwards are just a bunch of “short-sighted psuedo-fans reeking of the need for immediate gratification.” lol
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I hope you don't consider it a personal attack
When I say that I don’t care for any of the comments you have ever made here.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
I can't believe you took the time to sit down and write this worthless dribble.
I’d prefer it if you started rooting for the yankees.
Am I the only one
who felt Big Al was a good signing, just bad luck. He was pretty damn awesome ’til his hip died.
Glenn Davis on the other hand.
Nope
Belle was our best player as soon as he walked in to Camden Yards. That was an unlucky signing more than a bad one.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Yea, I loved seeing that attitude applied to baseball
Is there really any type of Albert Belle player anymore? Some one who just looks like he wants to annihilate the baseball at all times.
I still think one of the more badass things I ever saw
was him refusing to go to first base after being hit (in the chest!) by a pitch because he wanted to get his revenge by launching the next pitch and he didn’t want to wait until his next AB. lol
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Exactly
It may have been the roids but no one would act like that in today’s game. James Harrison might be looking for new employment soon though…
I am searching, came across this
JULY 2: Orioles’ right fielder Albert Belle attempted to make a catch of a batted ball that was no longer in flight in a game against the Yankees. Derek Jeter hit a fly ball down the right field line that Belle juggled. The ball bounced off Belle’s glove and was trapped between his body and the wall before he grabbed it with his bare hand.
First base umpire Larry Barnett initially called Jeter out but after an umpires’ conference, Jeter was given a double and Baltimore manager Ray Miller was given the thumb in the ensuing argument.
JULY 25: Albert Belle was center stage again in the Orioles game against the Angels. After knocking in six runs with three homers, Belle was hit by reliever Shigetoshi Hasegawa and refused to go to first base. After some prodding from manager Ray Miller, Belle took his base. Umpires would be within their right to eject a player who insisted on remaining at bat after being hit by a pitched ball but that would be the worst case scenario.
by IggesRule13 on Jul 14, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah I always forget that he hit 3 bombs that game
I bet he was 100% certain he was going to hit a 4th.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I can't imagine there is
MLB is very serious about people posting any video that is theirs.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
Albert Belle was a thug
When he wasn’t hurt, he was suspended.
by miskatonic86 on Jul 14, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
He was also a bad muthfucka at the plate.
I am the Frizzle Fry.
by PBR me ASAP! on Jul 14, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
HELP WANTED: NEW OWNER
Someone who actually gives two craps about the product on the field, who connects with the fans, who can spend the money to compete in the AL East, who is up to date on what is going on in professional baseball, who will fight to get a World Series. Frankly, Peter Angelos is NOT WORKING. Must be terminated from his CEO position ASAP. We don’t care if he’s not from here, we just want a better owner.
Ambulance-chasing lawyers need not apply. Frankly, they don’t work for us.
look, I’ll agree that Angelos has done some really terrible damage to this franchise, but lately he’s shown he’s been willing to spend and that he genuinely loves his community. I’m not certain it’s that he just doesn’t care and i’d argue that he’s been extremely hands off (a good thing when you’re as clueless as he is) ever since MacPhail showed up. basically, we need a new scapegoat.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 14, 2011 10:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Come up with a few hundred million dollars
and you might have the chance to pry the O’s away from Petey. Otherwise, bitching about Mr. Angelos is an excise in futility. He is immortal. He will never die. We are stuck with him forever, or at least until we shed this mortal coil.
I am the Frizzle Fry.
by PBR me ASAP! on Jul 14, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Asbestos dust heavy conditions are nasty.
In most instances, the presences of asbestos material isn’t much of a health hazard – until you decide to disturb it.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
I didn't follow the particulars of the asbestos lawsuits ...
… but my understanding is they mostly involved people who worked in the asbestos industry, i.e. manufactured asbestos products, or in asbestos product installation, where cutting and other working of the material would generate dust & particulate.
It is in its particulate form that asbestos is so nasty. Suspended in the air it gets breathed in and tears up the lungs.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
That's the point
Angelos got compensation for people who got fucked up from asbestos.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I thought he was also one of the guys involved with the tobacco lawsuits.
I have mixed feelings about that one.
On states suing on the grounds that it drives up health care – I call bullshit. It is the very same states that allow tobacco sales and tax it heavily. What is the tax for if not to offset costs? Lets not even get into the the fact that it is the decision of the individual to smoke. Since smoking can cause adverse health problems, make the people who smoke pay more. How you can really tell this was nothing more than an effort by states top shake down the tobaccos companies is by looking where the money goes. I believe a few of them actually have it earmarked to only go to offset Medicaid. Most have the money going into their general fund.
On class action suits on the part of individuals – there is still the personal responsibility issue – it isn’t like people haven’t known for 60+ years that smoking is bad for you. But that is offset by how the tobacco companies manipulated their product. They figured out the right additives that increased the dose rate of nicotine from a cigarette to the user. The higher the dose rate, the more hooked on nicotine. Overall, I can understand juries coming down on the side of the individual smokers.
If our elected officials and the government agencies suppossedly responsible for public well being where truely interested in improving the well being of the public, they would have long ago required one simple change to how cigarettes are manufactured. Eliminate the nitrates. The nitrates were originally added to keep the cigarette burning, whether or not it was being drawn on. Later, research showed that the hotter the cigarette burned when drawn on, the greater percentage of tobacco (and nicotine) was converted to a gaseous state. The transfer across the cell tissue of the lungs is much greater that way.
And as anyone who has ever gotten involved in Fire Protection can tell you, there is the added benefit of greatly reducing the number of accidental fires (and deaths) caused by cigarettes. We hear about the danger of second hand smoke to childern, but far more kids die every year from cigarette caused fires than those that eventually die from something related to second hand smoke.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
He did tobacco as well.
And I think the point of all the tobacco law suits was that the tobacco companies intentionally misled the public, regulators, etc about how bad their products were for people. I agree that people make their own decisions whether or not to smoke, and certainly these days when everybody knows how bad it is for you I’d have a hard time believing anybody that claimed ignorant. But for most of the tobacco companies’ histories they intentionally hid how horrible the things were for you and if somebody started smoking with incomplete or fraudulent information and then got addicted and sick I think the companies are at fault.
As far as whether government should mandate how they are produced, my guess is that the tobacco lobby has a shitload of money and has made their preferences known. It’s no secret that lots of politicians are in their pocket. Sounds like a good idea to me though.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I try not to second guess jury verdicts.
Particularly based on what the media reports.
I’m convinced that even though many jurers may have had reservations about how culpable cigarettes were for the health problems or with people who smoked a pack or more a day trying to say they have no responsibility, in the end it was the behavior you describe above and the evidence showing they not only knew, but put a great deal of their research into improving the delivery system that carried the most weight.
Good example of why one should never pay attention to trials in the news – that woman who was recently acquited on murdering her daughter. Everyone is so outraged at the jury. Yet from what I have heard, had you sat through the trial and seen the evidence, it became pretty obvious that it was an accidental drowning, with the mother panicking and concocting a story to explain.
The McDonald’s coffee case in Arizona a few years back is another. It has become a classic example of juries running amok and awarding outrageous penalties. Truth is the woman only was asking for about $5,000 to cover what her insurance didn’t. Micky D’s basically told her to go piss up a rope. Once a jury heard the facts of the case – like how that particular McD’s kept their coffee several degrees above the temp called for in the process control procedure and had several warnings from the health department due to similar scalding incidents – they found McDonald’s arrogance and lack of concern to be completely unwarranted and sent a message.
One of the lessons from the latter is always remember that your lawyers work for you, not the other way around. Had someone at McDonald’s remembered that, he/she would have told Legal to piss up the rope and paid the $5,000 claim.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
We agree!
There’s a documentary on tort reform on HBO right now that’s pretty awesome – you should check it out. It uses the McDonalds case you reference above to illustrate how ridiculous the media portrayals of law suits are. The media all portrayed her as this dumbass who was driving while trying to drink her coffee and carelessly spilled it and got minor injuries and tried to win the jackpot. In actuality she was seriously fucked up and had to get something like 15 different skin grafts (the pictures are absolutely revolting) and on the stand McDonalds own employees admitted that they would never drink the coffee at the temps that they serve and that contact with the skin would result in severe bunrs.
I know you tilt more right, but I’d be curious to get your take on the issue after checking out the documentary.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
If I have time, I'll try to check it out.
At this point my take on tort reform is pretty much influenced by my youngest brother. He was a prosecutor and later recruited by the Justice Dept, ending up as the US Attorney for S. Caroline.
And that is basically that much of the proposed reform would do more harm than good.
PS – it may seem like I tilt to the right. From my perspective it appears to be standing straight on personal freedom and responsibility. I don’t care if you like to burn the flag, smoke dope or stick your dick up someone’s ass – whether they be of the same or opposite sex. Just don’t infringe on my freedom and most certainly don’t try to use government to do what you can’t do on your own. (And while I am pro-business, I also tend to agree a bit with duck on corporations. I don’t agree with their being given the same standing under law as individuals, unless they also operate under the same responsibilities and liabilities.)
Sure would be nice if we were talking about how the O’s just kicked Red Sox ass again – wouldn’t it?
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
Hey! Now we can talk about how the O's just kicked the Red Sox ass!
Not again, but it’s a start. lol
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
On Being Positive...
Just read this on the Bleacher Report Make fun of it all you want but it is nice to hear the manager being positive.
As far as this thread, there is almost nothing in the article that is positive. The most constructive thing mentioned was that they need to maybe build the farm system… duh. That is what MacPhail is doing. A little later the comment is made about relying on Peter Angelos. Are you kidding me. In my opinion, he is and has been the worst thing about the Orioles by far.
There were a very few comments that are not griping, rude, diversionary, or attacking me for looking for something better. Looking for anything near positive in the comments this is all I can find:
- buy mediocre players to eat innings (at least it is an idea)
- have management listen to the fans (!?!?!) and draft the players the fans want.
- Build a good team (was anyone trying intentionally not to?)
- Walk more (this is a good observation … and the discussion made sense. Probably the highlight of the thread.)
- wait for Angelos to die.
- try something different.
- try being positive (My silly idea).
And then people start picking on me, cursing and poking fun at the fact that I’m not pissing on the efforts of MacPhail and Showalter over half a season with a team of youngsters, and am not calling for their heads.
That isn’t very positive or constructive — and I fail to see the balance between bright points and constructive criticism. I’d gladly take a second look if you can point out what I missed… my point is, it seems everyone is outraged because the Os haven’t burst on the scene like we all hoped… And therefore it is time to start over before its begun. That is how players like Curt Shilling come up in an Os uniform and end up staring everywhere else. There is a big difference between blind following and passion to make something better with constructive thought. “This sucks!” is not constructive. Disagree with management, but also state your better plan. Try and make it financially realistic and doable. “Sign everyone!” is not viable.
And Stacey, I could care if you like my statements. In my opinion, your negativity is what drives this bus.
I don’t know the solution, but it isn’t in the weepy drivel that “we suck”. And I hear claims of research, but I see only ONE comment that goes to the point of naming a name as to who specifically might help.
I’ve pointed out bright points celebrated on CC (e.g., birds up/birds down) and you refuse to see them. And people pick on you because you say condescending things like pointing out who’s a real fan. People find that insulting.
Folksy literate type.
I’m looking at this thread. There may be positive things on other threads. To me what it means to be a fan is not here.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 14, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
but this thread doesn't represent all of camden chat.
To me what it means to be a fan is not here.
and this quote is exact problem richard. you continue to insult people. if you continue to insult people, they will continue to be rude to you. remember what the beatles said? “and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.”
Folksy literate type.
?????
It is ‘insulting’ to suggest people are being negative in a thread when there are probably more productive things to do?
Pretty thin skinned bunch if that’s the case.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 4:52 AM EDT up reply actions
But you're suggesting that because we're being negative (about a team that's 17 games under .500) we aren't fans!
If you don’t think that’s insulting than you’re an idiot.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
decided to check the thread to see if richard responds
just as i expected, he didn’t.
Folksy literate type.
maybe I'm busy?
I will have a look at the threads. I didn’t know I had a time deadline.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 19, 2011 7:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait, responds to what? It is not insulting simply to have a different opinion. I believe the management was brought on to make change and they are doing it. Showalter and MacPhail have a track record for doing just this thing. The end of last year showed there was something to what they accomplished and it did not carry into 2011. That means suddenly the same players can’t play the game? Fans are greedy for winning, I understand. Crying and whining and cursing their own players… I’m not sure that is the most positive approach.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 19, 2011 7:15 AM EDT up reply actions
When that "different opinion" is that we aren't real fans
it’s fucking insulting.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I thought it might be helpful...
to realize you were spending too much time with the pitty pouch.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 20, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Instead you just looked like an orange kool aid drinking, power of positive thinking bullshit, fool.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
That's probably because you either didn't read the article
or didn’t comprehend it.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Nah...
I think I got it just fine. Read it. Says, pretty much, weep weep weep, sob sob and beat the dog.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 4:53 AM EDT up reply actions
If you don't see the parts where people are talking about a better plan, I really don't think you're looking hard enough.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 14, 2011 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking Plenty...
If you disagree with my outline of what is in the thread, PLEASE point out to me where there are positive statements looking forward to a solution.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 4:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I've done it three times already. You don't seem to get it.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
How many bright points would you expect to see when the team is 17 games under .500 and has the 2nd worst record in baseball?
There aren’t that many bright points because THERE AREN’T THAT MANY BRIGHT POINTS.
Nobody around here is suggesting “Sign everyone!” or even close to that. Nobody around here is giving up or providing any “weepy drivel.” I’ve already tried to direct you to the very specific plans that have been laid out on this blog numerous times already, but it’s clear you have absolutely no interest in exploring them or acknowledging them.
Seriously if you don’t like the direction of this bus feel free to sow yourself off.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Direct me...
I keep hearing people say they are ‘directing me’ and that there are positive things… Give a specific example… I’d be glad to see it. That doesn’t mean “go read all of camden chat” cause everything I look at is bathed in self-pitty.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 4:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I just counted down the top ten all star moments of all time
They were all happy. dfa and j.q. write a weekly article on prospects that could help the O’s in the future. After the draft James wrote a two part review that was quite positive. There is also the Fan Post feature that allows anyone to say their piece, so if you like you can write your own positive article.
But if it’s really as awful here as you say it is, why don’t you leave? I’m not saying that as an invitation, I’m honestly wondering why you keep returning when you hate everything said on tbis site.
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
As if it wasn't already clear you don't read this blog
you link to the Bleacher Report. Really?
The most constructive thing mentioned was that they need to maybe build the farm system… duh. That is what MacPhail is doing.
It is? You could have fooled me. Last I checked we have one of the worst farm systems in baseball in MacPhail’s fourth season. If he’s trying to make it better than why is he still refusing to spend internationally? Why are their rumors that we might be buying before the deadline to get an innings-eater?
And then people start picking on me, cursing and poking fun at the fact that I’m not pissing on the efforts of MacPhail and Showalter over half a season with a team of youngsters, and am not calling for their heads.
This isn’t a team of youngsters. The only players in tonight’s starting lineup that were somewhat young players of any quality were Adam Jones and Matt Wieters, both 25 with Jones beginning to become expensive. As for our pitching, Arrieta is the only notable young pitcher left in our rotation. Britton will probably be back soon and hopefully the same with Matusz. Tillman…I’m not sure I care anymore. But when you look at this lineup (when Vlad is playing), you see a team of a few young guys, several mediocre or average players, and a couple of over-the-hill veterans put together to reach the odd and pointless goal of a .500 season.
There is a big difference between blind following and passion to make something better with constructive thought. "This sucks!" is not constructive. Disagree with management, but also state your better plan. Try and make it financially realistic and doable. "Sign everyone!" is not viable.
For fuck’s sake—oh, sorry, I forgot that cursing makes Baby Jesus cry—that’s not a realistic characterization of this blog. This is a place where you can expect constructive, intelligent discussion of Orioles baseball. Actually read some of the articles and comments on this site (such as the article and comments here, since you apparently didn’t read them).
...
Ya, I linked to the Bleacher Report. Really. it was an interview with Showalter. You don’t like the BR because they won’t let you write there?
Last I checked we have one of the worst farm systems in baseball
Doesn’t seem to be pretty, but I don’t know where these prospects are coming from if not from the minors. You all may have given up on the potential talent in those arms, but I have not.
This isn’t a team of youngsters.
HA! Really? Even with the old guys, you have an average age of 30. All of the following are under 28, and it is without Britton, Matusz and Tillman.
Jake Arrieta
Mitch Atkins
Brad Bergesen
Jason Berken
Jim Johnson
Pedro Viola
Craig Tatum
Matt Wieters
Robert Andino
Blake Davis
Mark Reynolds
Adam Jones
Nick Markakis
Felix Pie
Nolan Reimold
In whose book is that an old team? The Yankees, by comparison average a year older with only 9 players 28 or under. That is 60% compared to 36%.
This is a place where you can expect constructive, intelligent discussion of Orioles baseball.
Jezux, where? All I see here is negative, pittiful weeping.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 5:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Since you have shown zero motivation to search for these on your own
I will take time out of my day to force feed you this, so here, I present to you a small sample of some of the ‘constructive, intelligent discussion of Orioles baseball’ that can be found on this here blog. Read the articles. Read the comments. There is a heaping-helping of insightful commentary and analysis here. And this is just a small sample from over the last month.
http://www.camdenchat.com/2011/6/15/2225050/singing-the-praises-of-j-j-hardy
http://www.camdenchat.com/2011/6/13/2219602/jeremy-guthrie-doesnt-know-how-to-win#storyjump
http://www.camdenchat.com/2011/6/9/2215048/is-there-a-quick-fix-for-the-lineup
http://www.camdenchat.com/2011/6/29/2248631/bird-food-modernize-this-franchise
Now, either read the links I have so helpfully and thoughtfully provided you and engage in some actual constructive criticism or get the fuck out. If this blog is not to your liking then go explore any of the myriad of other O’s related blogs on the interwebz. There is even a handy-dandy menu of links on the home page so your lazy ass won’t have to exert too much effort to find them.
But for fuck’s-fucking-sake quit with your own negative, pitiful weeping regarding this blog.
I am the Frizzle Fry.
by PBR me ASAP! on Jul 15, 2011 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Meh
This guy is just being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. His first sentence on his first comment in this thread sums it all up, he questions our fanhood and calls us losers. I seriously doubt that he will take the time to read those links, and if he does, he will come to the conclusion that it’s all whiny, cry-baby dribble. I mean, this is the same guy called out Stacey for being negative on pretty much the most mundane article ever about Luke Scott being put on the DL.
His only interest is being the center of attention, and we are indulging him. Since it’s worked so far, he will keep pushing the envelope until he crosses the line and gets banned. Then we’ll be able to go back to our negative pitiful weeping uninterrupted… at least until the next troll pops out from under the bridge over the River Birdland.
"Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.."
first,,,
I call stacey out because after reading for YEARS the only thing I hear from her is negativity and people jumping on the bandwagon. Makes you all seem superior when you are … NOT.
I am an ‘asshole’ if I love my team and realize it isn’t all about winning. There was a time when a team wasn’t who the next big dollar brought in. And name ONE TIME that the Os have has that big dollar win.
I don’t care about attention. If I did there are better ways to get it than to post on some marginal Orioles thread. I am saying this is symptom of a disease. You have the opportunity to fix it….
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Where does Stacey talk about people jumping on the bandwagon? What fucking bandwagon are you even referring to? The Orioles’???? Nobody is jumping on that shit.
I have absolutely no clue what your 2nd paragraph about big dollar wins is even about.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Here is what...
Stacey IS the bandwagon. She is horribly negative and you all seem to enjoy it. I guess it can be funny if you are all feeling sorry for yourselves, but you are all so tuned into the negativity that you don’t even notice it.
I didn’t think it was that hard to follow… but it is the ‘negativity’ bandwagon.
Speaking of not that hard to follow… the second paragraph is responding to the first line in the post just previous. The Orioles have not really had a free-agent signing that ever put them into contention or even considerably improved the team. The biggest stars have been home-grown.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 17, 2011 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions
how far back are we going?
because i make an easy argument for palmeiro and alomar of the mid-90s, and even tejada before the 05 season.
well I thank you for reading for years despite the fact that you think I'm the most negative nancy in all the land
It goes with the hot dog, it goes with nachos, it goes with peanuts. Beer’s perfect. Beer never got mad at me because I didn’t call beer back. - JT
All aboard the "negativity bandwagon"!!!!
Maybe I would have been able to follow either paragraph if they made any sense. Maybe we need to realize it isn’t “all about winning” and then your logic will make some sense. Maybe if we all join that alternate universe where winning isn’t all that matters, then phrases such as “And name ONE TIME the O’s have has (?) that big dollar win.” would be a a reasonable usage of the English language.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
you think you are clever, congratulations. However, you may need a new meter as it seem to be broken.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 19, 2011 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Except...
it is all about winning. That is the raison d’être for competitive athletics. Why bother if you ain’t in it to win it. To quote Herm Edwards, “You play to WIN the game”.
You are being called an ‘asshole’ because you are adopting a condescending attitude toward fellow fans of the team which you ostensibly claim to be a fan of.
One time that the O’s have ‘has’ that big dollar win? Albert Belle. He was the highest paid player when he signed with the O’s. Didn’t end up working out due to a degenerative hip condition. But you wanted to know, so there you go.
I am the Frizzle Fry.
by PBR me ASAP! on Jul 15, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
My point...
You can’t win every time. When you don’t you need to rebuild, sometimes structurally. Sometimes you need to let that structure meld. The only team that has ever seemed to buy a world-series is the Florida Marlins — that is, they made the right investments and went from chumps to champs. Some will say the yankees — but the yankees are on a continual spending spree, and they have to get it right sometimes. Of course you play to win, but i you upend the chess board every time it looks like you made a bad move, you’ll never get very good at the game.
Albert Belle was NOT a big dollar win. I mean a player they paid for that made them a feared team or a decided winner. Belle ended up being one of the biggest $$ flops in the history of the game.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 17, 2011 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions
One player does not, and can not make a baseball team a 'feared team' or a 'decided winner'
That is not how the game works. And Belle’s contract was hardly one of the ‘biggest $$ flops in the history of the game’. Carl Pavano to the Yanks, Jason Bay to the Mets, Barry Zito to the Giants….etc…and that is just off the top of my head sitting here. Belle was struck down in his prime due to a freak hip condition. Shit happens. It was unfortunate and unlucky. Insurance covered the bulk of the contract. It was in no way a ‘flop’.
I don’t understand where the point regarding teams buying a WS came from. I never argued for that approach. I believe the team needs to undergo a structural rebuilding, where the front office is overhauled and replaced with a team that demonstrates, communicates, and applies some type of focused concept which will allow this team to compete in the AL East. ‘Grow the arms, buy the bats’, while a plausible idea, has failed in it’s execution. As I’ve said elsewhere, if you want to ‘grow your arms’ you need more than 5 or 6 seeds. Pitcher attrition is the norm, MacPhail operated as if it was the exception. There was a probability somewhere on the order of ‘nil’ that all of Guts, Matusz, Tillman, Arrieta, Britton, Bergesen would pan out simultaneously.
As for your chessboard analogy, when you are in checkmate, as the O’s are (they are clearly the worst team in the AL East at the moment, and likely going forward), then you might as well upend the board and start a new game. And learn from the mistakes that led to your losing the last game. MacPhail has in his own comments alluded to an unwillingness to change his approach. That makes him a liability to this team going forward.
I am the Frizzle Fry.
by PBR me ASAP! on Jul 17, 2011 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Repeating for the umpteenth time...
I was specifically talking about THIS THREAD. My ‘lazy ass’ has read through this and noted the specific examples of ‘near positivism’… which is better than your lazy ass has done because you have obviously not read the thread.
I will have a look at the links, and maybe that will be a nice surprise. But since I was talking about this thread, here is my main issue with the article so many seemed to be touting…
What does it mean to be a fan of a team going nowhere?
The title says a lot — exasperation and total abandonment of hope. But the promise of the title is some type of solice. It is not ‘news’ of any type that the Orioles have been losing a lot, yet the article dwells there (and the comments fall completely into that vortex). It seems almost inexplicable considering the management, talented youth, and free-agent spending. The one notable horror is Peter Angelos — world’s worst owner.
There is a history in baseball of teams (around the league) who have had great talent but not made the playoffs… and that would most likely be some hidden dynamic that made them individuals playing for goals and not really a team. Like Milton Bradley, there may be talent, but the personality detracts so much from that to make it seem impossible and worthless. On the other hand, there are teams with spirit that play above their level. The Orioles seem to not at all be playing at their level.
The Oriole players have vaguely mentioned it themselves in interviews: I have heard several players talk about guys not doing what they are supposed to do (most notably in Markakis’ rant from last season). I don’t know that it is possible to really sift out specifically who they are talking about or in what situations, but it seems a recurrent theme.
There is something wrong with the personality or the dynamic in the clubhouse, or even with a smaller group of players. I think it extends to the fans, and it reeks down from the top of the poisonous attitude of Peter Angelos.
I can look at the win-loss record all I want, and I still can’t convince myself that it is because the Os are fielding a talentless bunch of losers or that it is the fault of MacPhail or Showalter. I can’t put my finger on it, but I am guessing the players have an idea. Whatever that issue was, it went away for a while at the end of last season, and the Os played to their potential… and if you look at the roster, it is not hugely changed — and that is part of why I do not get all the negativity in this thread. 2011 has been disappointing, absolutely. Do you just ignore the fact that many of the same core players were involved at the end of the season before in a winning and positive environment? At the same time, there are opinions, it seems, that call for starting all over again.
What is the difference between the end of 2010, and the beginning of 2011? It can’t all be Brian Roberts…
by Richard Lynch on Jul 17, 2011 6:08 AM EDT up reply actions
It seems almost inexplicable considering the management, talented youth, and free-agent spending.
This is fucking stupid – the management is awful, there is very little in the way of talented youth, and the free agent spending has been an absolute failure. What on earth are you talking about?
If you think the O’s are losing because of some kind of personality problem you’re living in a fantasy land. They are losing because they field a substandard team year after year.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
the management is awful
No, it is not. Showalter has a history of successes (952-897). MacPhail has shown the ability to re-engineer a team, as he did with Minnesota and arguably the Cubs. Who would you rather have doing these jobs?
The youth is talented. Look back to the second half of 2010. That happened with the team members you mostly still have, minus several players it seems many round here didn’t like or needed to be improved, including: Lugo, Wiggy, Bell. Hardy, Lee and Guererro seem to be an improvement over that. Perhaps not as much as the $$ would suggest. The players believe they are a competitive team — or should be.
The ‘substandard’ team at the end of last year did pretty darn well. So… What is the difference? The same players now stink because at 28 they are too old to play? Really? Don’t know how old you are, but if you think 28 is old, you need to re-evaluate.
There is something wrong, but I do not think it is the talent of what is assembled. If you could be specific… names and facts and such… I think you might see the same.
I do think the Os need to be realistic and start looking toward 2012. But my guess is that management all realize that and have been looking there since about 2008. It is a process, not the EASY button.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 19, 2011 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions
No, it is not. Showalter has a history of successes (952-897). MacPhail has shown the ability to re-engineer a team, as he did with Minnesota and arguably the Cubs.
I’m not talking about their histories – I’m talking about what they have done and are doing. Buck is managing the lineup and bullpen like a total moron – playing Felix Pie over Nolan Reimold, using Koji and JJ in meaningless situations rendering them unusable for meaningful situations, trotting vlad out there in the cleanup spot all year long. He’s acting like an idiot.
Meanwhile maybe MacPhail has had success in the past, but he’s assembled a team with the worst defense in the majors, an overpaid awful bullpen (only 2 competent relievers), a string of failed free agent signings, a player development system that turns top prospects into duds, and now that farm system is totally devoid of any prospects except for 2.
Is that competent management?
You keep pointing to the 2nd half of last season – it was 1/3 of a season. Big fucking deal. Look at the first half of 2005. Teams go on streaks all the time that are no indicative of their true talent level.
Geurrero is not an improvement over anybody.
No talent evaluators agree with your assessment of the team. Nobody that scouts players or assesses teams for a living predicted the O’s for anything other than last this year because the roster is just not good. Period.
If you think they are anywhere near competing in 2012 you are absolutely insane.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
???
Lots of people thought the Os would be in a much better place to compete this year. In fact, right here in this forum…Just not in this thread. It is like a presidential election where someone votes for one president at the pole, and another when they find out who won (and don’t want to be associated with who lost).
If you don’t go by history, what do you go by? Crystal ball? voodoo?
At the beginning of the season the Orioles had many relievers with closing experience…
Koji
Gregg
Johnson
Simon
Gonzalez
Accardo
it looked good.
They had a crop of new, young arms that seemed ready to jell into something special…
Matusz
Tillman
Arrieta
Britton
Atkins
(I am not including guthrie as obviously he’s ancient on your scale)
It looked promising.
They had a new infield…
Lee
Reynolds
Hardy
Addressed a power potential issue …and it looked good.
They had returning players who were successful on offense
Markakis
Roberts
Jones
Scott
(and seemingly good potential with wieters and reimold and maybe even fox… but I leave them off the list)
That they still had the core strength of the previous team that showed success AND added an improved infield, power, and another respected bat (Guerrero)… It looked good.
Showalter was — till the beginning of the season — touted as a bit of a magician.
MacPhail had assembled talent, and even reached into the free agent pool to make decided improvements, and patched some holes.
It all looked good.
I am not going to change what I thought then because it hasn’t jelled. Sure it is disappointing. However, you are whining and crying and demanding that you didn’t believe it was going to be a better season.
At the same time, you have no specific suggestions for change — and throwing everything out to start again based on a half season is ludicrous. It is also silly to blame the last 14 years on anyone in the organization but Angelos, as he’s about the only one that has been here that long.
You feel justified in your negativity. Enjoy it I guess… However, seems to me that nothing can come of being negative.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 20, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
You're really slow with this stuff
No talent evaluators agree with your assessment of the team. Nobody that scouts players or assesses teams for a living predicted the O’s for anything other than last this year because the roster is just not good. Period.
Do people on this blog count as talent evaluators or scouts? lol Read a little more carefully please.
Also who gives a flying fuck about having “many relievers with closing experience”???? hahahahaha that’s the funniest thing you’ve said before. 4 of the pitchers you included in that list are fucking horrible and everybody expected them to be fucking horrible! hahahahaha wow man.
Then you include Atkins in the crop of young arms? hahahahaha
You are unbelievably ignorant about the team, which goes a long way toward explaining your positive thinking about them.
You’re also a broken record with your “you have no specific suggestions for change” even though I’ve made my specific suggestions a hundred times already – trade everybody that won’t be here in 4 years, sign every draft pick from this year regardless of cost, release Vlad, expand the international scouting and development, bring in some new player development people, stop spending money on stop gap free agents and only open the checkbook for actual game-changers. It’s pretty simple.
This is fun though – your comments are getting increasingly stupid and funny. Keep ’em coming.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Wait Seriously?
If I hope you don’t seriously consider any of Atkins, Bergesen, Viola, Tatum, Andio, Davis, and Pie to ever be useful pieces on a World Series caliber team. and Berken, Johnson, and Reimold are far from core pieces.
The most insane inclusion on that list is definitely Pedro Viola
He has an ERA of almost 10 and a WHIP over 2 at AAA as a 28 year old. I’m appalled that he’s even still being paid to play baseball, and you think he’s a bright spot.
the list...
is the current roster. look it up. nothing more, nothing less.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You obviously didn't read it very carefully when you looked it up
since 3 of the guys you listed as “under 28” are not, in fact, under 28.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I did not do a monthly analysis… I did it by year. I think you might be able to see how that worked.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 17, 2011 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Monthly analysis???
either they are under 28 or they aren’t. Baseball reference lists every player’s age right next to their birthday.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
It is not insane if you follow the conversation. That is current roster. It had nothing to do with who was talented or brilliant. These are players 28 and under, representing ‘youth’… I wasn’t evaluating skill or talent or anything else.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 17, 2011 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions
His point
is that the inclusion of Pedro Viola for the purposes of talking about the “youth” of the team is FUCKING STUPID. The guy is a AA player at age 28 – he’s not representative of any fucking youth movement. He’s representative of the stupid ass shit that this organization has been doing over the last decade and a half.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
follow the bouncing conversation, please...
Someone said the team was “not youthful”. I was addressing that. I do not have the crystal ball you seem to have.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 17, 2011 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t seem to be pretty, but I don’t know where these prospects are coming from if not from the minors. You all may have given up on the potential talent in those arms, but I have not.
Yeah because we’re the ones who rate the farm systems and determine that ours is fucking terrible.
Also on that ridiculous list of “under 28” players, Jim Johnson, Pedro Viola and Craig Tatum are NOT under 28. But that stupid mistake aside, there is not a single position player on the team under 25 and only 2 starters under 27. That is NOT young team.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Ages...
Jim Johnson was born June 27. He was 28 till 3 weeks ago. Mea culpa.
Tatum is about 4 months into 29. mea culpa.
Viola is also about 3 weeks over the 28 mark.
It is amazing that you can get off the toilet.
A team averaging in the 20s is young. What planet are you from?
by Richard Lynch on Jul 17, 2011 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions
You said UNDER 28
If you’re going to state things as facts make sure they’re actually facts.
And now I don’t think “a team averaging in the 20s is young” because I’m from the planet that actually looks things up instead of just blindly stating them. Almost every team in the league has an average age in the 20s – a simple trip to baseball reference would have told you that, but just like all your other ridiculous comments you were too lazy to look it up. If you want to see an actual young team check out the Pirates, Royals, Indians, Marlins.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Richard, you may want to consider the following:
Many of the people who regularly post comments at CC are of an age that almost all they have known is futility from their ballclub. It may have been the Cal Ripken / Mike Mussina / Roberto Alomar 90’s era Orioles that ignited their love, but for 14 years it has been one disappointment after another.
Yet these same people put a lot of themselves into following the team and coming together at places like CC to share their interest in and love of the Orioles. That is commitment.
Finally, there is the undeniable fact that in the past few weeks we’ve watched the wheels come off of this team. Even the most optimistic person would have a difficult time thinking things are alright – at least without being seen as delusional. So if we see a few posted topics where fans need to get some of the despair off their chests – so what? I may personally choose to try to focus – or perhaps a better word is fool myself – on any positives, but that doesn’t make me any more of a fan or a better one than anyone here. And besides – it isn’t a contest.
Do some people here do more bitching than offering positive input? Certainly. But that’s just something we have to live with. I recommend following the same outlook you do for the team – focus on the positive aspects of CC and forget about the stuff that bothers you.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
i'm suggesting...
that the negativity does not improve anything in and of itself.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You're suggesting absolutely nothing.
Except the power of positive thinking.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Is wishing Angelos keels over from a heart attack ...
.. considered as positive thinking?
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
That's fine, except ...
… you suggest more than just that. It was the rest that got people going.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
This article was linked on the SBN Jays site.
Here is one of the comments:
It will make you want to call your mom and dad and just tell them you love them. It will make you appreciate the sunrise. It will make you appreciate .500 baseball. Good lord that was depressing.
Orioles magic, feel it happen!
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Jul 14, 2011 11:41 PM EDT reply actions
well, it's a regular old pity party now ain't it?
I am the Frizzle Fry.
by PBR me ASAP! on Jul 14, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
wow I wish I hadn't started reading that shit
When’s the last time the Blow Jays made the playoffs??
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Does that really matter when they're a team that's in a good position heading into the future?
We’re a team going nowhere. They’re a team going off to make the AL East a four team battle.
Are they in a good position?
Seems they’re in a good position to hover around .500 and 4th place. Obviously that’s better than last place and 17 games under .500, but what good does it get you?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
They have one of the top farm systems in baseball.
And their front office appears to be pretty smart.
Sure
but it’s hard for me to see how it’s going to get them anywhere other than 4th place or maybe 3rd if something weird happens.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
really?
why care about 2011? Nice goal, but 30 games out is a long way to go. There are positives to work on that go beyond 2011.
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude read the fucking thread that you're responding to.
This comment is about the fucking Blue Jays. Get it together.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Also what the FUCK?
You didn’t include the whole quote:
It will make you want to call your mom and dad and just tell them you love them. It will make you appreciate the sunrise. It will make you appreciate .500 baseball. Good lord that was depressing. The Jays have had their faults, but at least .500 baseball has been obtainable in many of the years during our drought. Maybe it’s karma for mussina being such a clown!
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
oh for the love of god, fuck the Blue Jays. seriously, how anyone has anything but utter contempt for those dicksneeze assholes is beyond me.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Jul 15, 2011 12:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
sometimes i wonder
but i tend to minimize the impact a pitching coach has on a pitcher. mostly i think his job is not to screw up what’s working, and maybe help him make some tweaks as needed.
It would never, ever, ever, ever happen but it is an interesting topic to discuss in a situation like this one.
Promotion and relegation like European soccer. Would the threat of being relegated to the minor leagues, as an example, be enough to turn around seeming hopeless situations like the one the Orioles are in now? If nothing else it would bring about changes in the organization which has some obvious issues and question marks surrounding it.
"The first thing I told the umpire was that 'It's a shame that he can't have an ERA because those runs are his.' "
… but do you mean why stop at selling ballpark names and sell the frigging name of the team?
I may be a limited audience, but that does away with most of the small market issue…
now that is a potentially brilliant idea…could bring a fortune to the right teams spun the right way…
by Richard Lynch on Jul 15, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
What's the incentive for Angelos?
I’ve thought about this a lot over the last few weeks.
Why would Angelos want to spend money to improve the team be it free agents, scouting, farm development, signing drafted players, or international players when his franchise still makes plenty of money every year?
Each year its gets worse with how welcoming Camden Yards is to the Yankee and Red Sox faithful. Showing Bruins highlights or selling Jeter t-shirts in the team store are two things that should NEVER happen in Baltimore. But I guess you have to recoup money from the lost attendance somehow.
At this point I’m waiting out the owner. The deathwatch is on. Sounds morbid and awful but this franchise is broken on so many levels that it needs an overhaul top to bottom with a plan for modern baseball. That will only happen after he sells or leaves.
"Have a good time...all the time." - Viv Savage
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