Wednesday Bird Droppings
by 2632 on Aug 24, 2011 7:50 AM EDT
in Open Threads
Email
Print
Jones hospitalized, released after tests come out fine - baltimoresun.com
"The Orioles said they summoned the Twins’ team doctor as part of stadium operations procedure but no one from the Orioles actually called 911, though a "non-emergency" call was placed. The Orioles initially described the condition as an "illness" when Jones left the field."
O's clear roster spot by designating Pie | orioles.com
Oh, Felix.
Pie speaks about being designated (with Adam Jones quotes) - baltimoresun.com
Felix: "I know I am the kind of player that [if] I play every day, I’ll do better and better. I think it’s much better for me to be put on waivers and see if another team will take me."
Shorebirds closer hopes to secure saves record - delmarvanow.com
"Walters, who signed with the Orioles organization as a free agent in June 2009, has recorded 30 saves for the Shorebirds this year and needs just three more to tie the franchise record set by Derek Brown in 1998."
On The Matt Holliday Moth Incident - Baseball Nation
Terrifying/Hilarious.
352 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
o's international prospects
really interesting piece on the progress of the o’s international prospects from orioles nation
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
So TL et al...
How are we feeling about our teams the morning after the draft?
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 8:46 AM EDT reply actions
yahoo crapping out on me worked out pretty well...
i am not good at drafting for fantasy football, but i’m pretty happy w/ my autopicks from after i got booted off. pretty happy w/ kolb, ’tana man, julio jones and the ravens d.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Who are you?
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
forest hills phonies
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Your team looks solid
I like your wideouts and QB. Santana Moss and his 115 catches are a steal as late as you got him in a PPR league.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm playing you first week.
I wanted Kolb as my backup. Hating my team overall though.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
are you ever satisfied?
nothing wrong w/ having high standards, my man.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Never be satisfied.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
sounds like a recipe for depression.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Aug 24, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a recipe for success to me
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Just ask Justin Duchscherer
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
i'm liking my team as well
hard to go wrong with AP at number one, and i think ryan grant will have a solid bounce-back year. the only think i’m not thrilled with is have the Romosexual as my QB, because we all know he’s going to chip a finger nail and be out for 4 weeks at some point this season.
carolina in my mind...
Yeah I'm really happy too
I’ve had few drafts go as well as I think that one went. Two things that kept it from being damn near perfect in my mind:
-Jamaal dropping to 5 where I was forced to take him (really wanted Cop Speed or Ray Rice there)
-Jason Witten being taken two turns before I was about to grab him
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry on Witten
Not really though.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Not too happy.
The two autopicks (GB’s defense and Heath Miller) were awful. Having that last pick completely messed up my planned strategy too. Didn’t really want a WR until round 3, but had to go early since all of the good ones would have been gone by the end of the third.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I was really happy about that silly QB run that happened early
For most of the draft i was able to sit back and know i could wait pretty much as long as i wanted to take whoever was left.
See now while I think the QB run happened too early
I think it’s absolutely essential to have a top tier QB in FF, and I had to change my draft strategy to make sure it happened.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
If happened a round or two early, thats one thing
but i wasn’t about to reach into Round 2 or 3 for a QB after the top 4 were already off the board when i could wait all the way until Round 11 and get Sam Bradford, who has a lot more weapons this year and could take a big step forward.
My reasoning:
The difference between one of those top 4 QB’s and Sam Bradford will be at least 100 points, maybe even 150.
The difference between a good WR and a mediocre one might only be 50 points.
I definitely think QB is the most important position on the team hands down. I was considering Vick at 5 overall.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Except that only 12 QBs play total. You need at least 2 RBs and at least 3 WR per team.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I had no shot at one of those top 4 though,
and no way would I have taken one of them over Ray Rice. The difference between the rest of the QBs and Sam Bradford is potentially not as great as the difference between Calvin Johnson and an average WR.
I understand not overdrafting if you don't have a shot at the top 4
Though my list of must-have QB’s was longer than 4. I’m assuming you mean the difference between Sam Bradford and the other QB’s available at that time, and not the difference between Sam and the top tier QB’s right?
But you’re right that’s important to get value picks and not reach, even if you don’t like the players you’re getting.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
That's where I got screwed up.
I wanted to go RB, RB in the first two rounds and then get a WR in the third. Had to adjust to get that WR early because of the space between picks. The early QB forced me to go QB right at the beginning of the 4th round too.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Meh
I wanted to wait and grab Peyton late but I slipped up and took Brady by accident (highlighted the wrong guy in my queue). 7 was the spot I absolutely did NOT want to be in. All the “value” guys I wanted were drafted right before I got a chance to snag them. Also, I hate most of my players (Dez Bryant, Jason Witten, Tom Brady), but I don’t think my team is all that shabby. I don’t feel as good as I usually do after a fantasy draft though. People made picks a lot faster than usual. At least it felt that way to me.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Trade offers for Witten will be coming.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Super pleased.
I’ll take CJ, forte, and hillis any day.
Other than having a raper for a QB, I’m satisfied. Have some hope that my last round sleeper, Greg Little benefits from Colt McCoy putting it together.
So, about this league
can we please come up with our own Shiva? We can name it the Tracy.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
yeah... late to the discussion here...
i’m not in love with my team. My strategy got thrown out of whack a little bit and I only drafted one RB in the first 4 rounds… and that RB is LeGarrette Blount. I ended up taking what I thought are some high upside guys (85, Benson, F Jackson, MSW, Edwards, Marshawn Lynch) so it’s probably a boom or bust type of season.
Also, half of my team is on bye for week 7 (including Vick), so early congratulations to Am i in?
Hahaha...I hope we play each other in week 7
3 of my top 5 players are on bye that week including both of my top RBs.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I In?...
Playing him Week 1. He didn’t show up for the draft and I have no idea who he is. Most likely candidate to not pay attention all year… and I get him week 1 with a full and healthy squad.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah...he's in the ESPN fantasy baseball league and pays attention.
He’s one of those people who don’t comment here often, but somehow shows up when all of the fantasy league fanposts happen.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
well fuck... i'd really hate to be "forfeiting" to an easier opponent
i’m sure my roster will look wildly different by the time week 7 rolls around… but still… no vick
With the way Vick plays
he might not have been around by week 7 anyway. I smell another injury coming this season.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Excellent.
Even after I left, I set my autopick queue and got everyone I wanted.
by WestcoastO'sFan on Aug 24, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
After yesterday's devastation along the entire east coast, I thought MLB would cancel today's games
<img src=“”http://twitpic.com/25txue" title=“Share photos on twitter with Twitpic”>
"/>
If you've been away, we still suck. And yes, we willl step outside and say that.
we can rebuild it! we have the technology!
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Hahahhaha..... I gotta steal this
sorry. by Birdman
by Wieters Wieners on Aug 24, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
WW, guess you scraped by with a 2-3 yesterday after Cincy won late.
What have you got for today?
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
Yeah, I put it in yesterdays open thread..
2-3 for -$560
Not a good day. Yanks left bases loaded down 1 in the 9th after Swisher hit a ball two feet from the wall.
Os inexplicably looking like a baseball team, and Seattle poking in meaningless 9th inning runs when I was two outs away.
Gotta get back on the horse. Waiting for the MIL line to come out for the early game.
sorry. by Birdman
by Wieters Wieners on Aug 24, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
O/U on LAD-STL is 7.5 runs.
LAD a -155 favorite. Various other baseball games taking place.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually....multiple early games today.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The MIL line is an O/U of 2.5 games gambled on before she hates that you married her daughter.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hahaha... so true.
sorry. by Birdman
by Wieters Wieners on Aug 24, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Good, because I took the under.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow
Just read the Pie link. Anybody buying his comments at all about how the reason he failed is because he didn’t play every day? Does he seriously think any team in the majors is going to pick him up and automatically give him a starting gig?
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 9:18 AM EDT reply actions
There's a reason he failed is the same reason he didn't play every day.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
it's possible...
but i don’t think it means he has to be given limitless chances. i think you can easily argue that reimold has been jerked around more than pie this year and he has somehow managed to not be one of the worse players in majoe league baseball this season.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
The injury last year is a shame, it's the best he's ever looked as a MLB player.
He’s not nearly as bad as he was this year, so there’s some truth to the argument that he needed more regular, consistent at-bats in order to succeed. It also is a shame that he never got hot at any point this year; you figure if he gets a little bit lucky, if he gets five or six hits over a couple of games, maybe a double or two and a homer, then they find ways to keep him in the lineup … and success breeds success in that regard. He just never got hot when he played a couple of games in a row – and things could have been a lot different for him if he had swung the bat well immediately after Scott started missing time. And falling down, not playing good defense, idiotic baserunning blunders, etc. in his limited playing time certainly doesn’t help his cause. You’re absolutely right that it doesn’t mean limitless chances, but I still think it’s a bit of a reach to say that they gave him the same kind of chance they gave Jones, or even Markakis in his rookie year. At this point, though, it might be a case of addition by subtraction in that they really have no choice but to give Reimold a month and a half of plate appearances (in the same way that by trading Hairston, they freed up a full-time opportunity for Brian Roberts). Reimold still could – SHOULD – be an above-average MLB player, and I’d love to see him succeed. If Reimold tanks this opportunity, then they need to address left-field for the long term. It’s not like I’m saying anything terribly novel here, though. Most of this has been beaten to death already.
I think its more of he's not nearly as good as he was last year.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s hard to make the argument that his playing time hasn’t been sporadic, and it’s hard to be “good” when you’re not getting regular plate appearances … so to some extent, that’s a fair thing for him to say. But for him to be as bad as he’s been, both offensively and defensively, and to be a pretty bad role player (in terms of not really being a great pinch-running option b/c of some really idiotic baserunning decisions and the like), it probably was time to move on. That said, you can’t possibly convince me that Pie was less valuable than one of Mitch Atkins, Willie Eyre (and his career 3.85 bb/9), Pedro Viola (who must have naked pictures of MacPhail playing golf with Satan), or KEVIN GREGG. But all things considered, it probably has no long-term effect; he didn’t play well in his limited chances this year to be sure.
He was the second worst valuable player in the MLB this year.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
least valuable**
Fuck grammar.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
It's like you're trying to pick an argument that doesn't exist.
If you’re trying to pick a fight, at least respond to something I’ve actually written.
by BohKnowsOs on Aug 24, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're a feisty little one, but you'll soon learn some respect.
You stated that he couldn’t possibly be less valuable than one of the following: Atkins, Eyre, Viola, or Gregg. I was merely stating that Pie was the second least valuable player in the MLB this year (thanks, Adam Dunn!!). Food for thought.
So to respond to your questions/statements/concerns/queries….
No, I’m not trying to pick an argument a fight.
Yes, I was responding to something you’ve actually written.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
But that would be a straw-man argument, wouldn't it?
Because Atkins, Eyre and Viola wouldn’t be part of that equation, having a combined ~17 mlb innings this year. Given that they all are mediocre-at-best MiL filler who have spent little or no time in the major leagues this year, they wouldn’t have enough time to accrue any meaningful negative WAR consideration. And surely you’re not making the case that Gregg has been anything short of awful, right? I hope you’ll agree that putting Gregg in meaningful game situations has had a greater overall negative effect on the 2011 Orioles than giving Pie 175 pretty meaningless at-bats and 36 pretty meaningless and sporadic starts. I readily acknowledged that Pie has been awful this year and that this decision has little or no overall effect on the future of the club. So yeah … is your counterpoint really that Pedro Viola (a 28 y/o AA pitcher) is a more valuable to the 40—man roster than Felix Pie? … because it still seems like you’re trying to pick a fight that doesn’t exist.
What exactly is your point?
I’m carrying you down a little rat hole because I have little better to do. You’re welcome to keep posting large paragraphs about Pie’s value though.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
“large paragraphs about Pie’s value "
At this point, I feel like you’re not even reading. If you ever were.
That's the point.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Pie isn't being dfa'd to make room on the 40 man.
He is being dfa’d because he is terrible at baseball. Pedro Viola is organizational filler that can be called up if we need bullpen fodder. The front office has determined that Pie has no value in the organization so he is being let go. I’m not sure what there is to argue about.
Say no to Prince Fielder in 2012.
by Knubles and Bits on Aug 24, 2011 11:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"The front office has determined that Pie has no value in the organization so he is being let go."
Except that this isn’t the company line … the company line was that they hope he clears waivers and accepts the assignment because they still think he can be a productive player. Fact remains that he’s one of the worst players on one of the worst teams in baseball, so it would surprise me if there was a whole lot of interest there. In truth, his best shot might actually be to accept a AAA assignment somewhere and do something worth noticing – whether that’s at Norfolk or somewhere else. If I were his agent, I’d tell him to head back to the PCL if some west-coast team will give him a MiL contract, and to steer clear of Harbor Park (as it is something of a black hole for hitters).
Did you expect them to come out and say
that he is trash and they want him gone? Every organization says this when they dfa a player.
Say no to Prince Fielder in 2012.
by Knubles and Bits on Aug 24, 2011 2:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
nothing to see here
Its just a player hanging onto his pride.
And the sad thing is, I don’t think Pie wasn’t trying hard at all. I think if anything he was trying too hard. He’s just not good at the baseball.
But, he still has a chance. More than all of us combined (except maybe O’sFan21). And if I had a chance, I’d like to think I’d have the exact same attitude of confidence that he seems to have.
Alright, whatever.
Angle is recalled
So Buck is frustrated with Pie (as are we all) and now we get to see Angle. His track record says it looks like he’ll struggle as well.
Anybody buying his comments at all about how the reason he failed is because he didn’t play every day?
He sort has a point, but no. He has enough MLB abs where I feel comfortable in concluding that he isn’t very good.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
's birthday...
bah. postus interrruptus.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I prefer to call it my 20th anniversary
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
by duck on Aug 24, 2011 10:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh look at you...putting your personal milestones ahead of the team!
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
narcissist!
uh, sike.
happy anniversary duck.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
When in doubt go with the classics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knp9-GY6fHE
"If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause."
- George Clinton
Not a lot of links today.
I guess there’s nothing really to say when the O’s actually win.
"Dyslexia?? It's DCO." - WestcoastO'sfan
hang down your heads...
saucy alf now has the best era+ in the starting rotation.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
Cross Adam Jones off the list
of people to replace Andy MacPhail. After watching him for 3 years, he thinks Felix can play baseball and apparently said so out loud.
Hobgood's last 5 starts are hilarious
4 IP: 4 ER
1.1 IP: 4 ER
4 IP: 1 ER (obviously he was on steroids for this one start)
2.2 IP: 9 ER
1.2 IP: 6 ER
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three-run homers."
Speaking of guys not very good at baseball.....
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Is he on an innings limit?
Why … I don’t even … four innings?
This was a terrible pick at the time, and we all knew it was a terrible pick at the time. Nothing says fun like throwing away a 5th overall pick.
probably...
considering he’s coming back from shoulder issues.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
"Coming back"
is relative, I suppose. He’s just awful. The “experts” all say that it’s too early to write him off – he just now would be entering his junior college season – so that’s fine and all. He’ll be back at Delmarva next year, i guess … at least he should be, because he hasn’t pitched well enough to find himself in the Frederick rotation. As a fifth overall pick? Just inexcusable.
hard to come back when you weren't ever there.
Who did we miss out on around that 5th pick?
Yeah ...
The ones we should have known about and who pretty clearly were a better picks than Hobgood were: Minor, Leake, and Grant Green (ss, average defense). I didn’t love Wheeler or Matzek (h/s pitchers) at the time, ditto Turner for the same reason (although he had the best command of the three in h/s), and I don’t think it’s terribly fair to say that the O’s should have taken Storen (a relief pitcher) or Trout (a toolsy outfielder type) at fifth overall – both of those guys would have been a huge reach. But Minor, Leake and Green should have been no-brainers ahead of Hobgood.
You guys just don't appreciate the comedic stylings of Mr. Hobgood.
Classic pitcher’s mound humor is lost on this crowd. He’s an artist!
Heathens.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three-run homers."
by ThreeRunHomer on Aug 24, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Sigh, I was gonna say they should consider sending him back down a level
but he’s already only at Aberdeen
Players taken immediately after Hobgood in 2009 Draft
Zach Wheeler (#6)
Mike Minor (#7)
Mike Leake (#8)
Jacob Turner (#9)
Drew Storen (#10)
Other notables:
Aaron Crow (#12)
Shelby Miller (#19)
Mike Trout (#25)
Probably best for these players future in baseball the Orioles didn’t pick them.
Not that any of the guys there are THAT good as of now.
Of course, they’re all better than Hobgobbler.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Drew Storen is pretty awesome
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Aug 24, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. I love that guy.
It was just a blanket statement for that list though. Nobody there is going crazy. They’ll all be better than Hobgood though.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
at the major league level? you're right, none of them have gone "crazy"
but trout has put up some pretty silly numbers in the minors so far, and wheeler, minor, turner, and miller have all shown they profile as front of the rotation starters. granted, a lot of that is still based off of potential, but i would still rather take that than the shit that hobgood has managed to produce so far.
carolina in my mind...
I'm just trying to make myself feel better here!
Trout batting like .190 makes me feel better about myself for liking a team who’s first round pick cannot seem to solve…….low A hitting.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Get him on the Deer Antler stuff!
"Grow nothing, buy the 'Pen" (Wieters Weiners)
by IggesRule13 on Aug 24, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think its really fair to bring Trout into the discussion
He was never mentioned as a reasonable pick at #5 by anyone, and 24 other teams passed on him as well. You can almost always find a better performing player if you go far enough down the draft list.
I agree.
Also, I don’t think it’s really fair to bring Storen into the discussion either. He was a polished college reliever who projected as a reliever in pro ball, and you don’t take a relief pitcher (no matter now polished or how good) at fifth overall.
In some ways it doesn't matter because the other guys we might have taken are also not doing well.
But it’s frustrating to have wasted a pick for a signability guy who may never pan out.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
i remember i wanted aaron crow
because i thought hobgood’s upside was aaron crow so skip the developmental risk and pay crow the money. but crow looks like a (good) reliever so i’m not missing him either.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
I’d rather have a good reliever than a fat h/s pitcher with arm problems stuck in A ball after two-plus years. Crow was rushed badly, too, so if he had been handled properly he probably still would be a quality starter prospect.
sure, i'll take crow over hobgood in a heart beat
i’m just saying if you end up with a reliever with a top 5 pick, you should be disappointed.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
But Crow isn't necessarily a reliever in an organization that handles him differently ...
Crow probably still should be a starter, and probably still should be in AA. If Hobgood were anywhere close to as successful – even in terms of expected development – as Crow has been, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. So it’s not really fair to assume that rushing through AA and into the major leagues (after just 170 innings split between A+ and AA, when he didn’t dominate AA, and none at AAA) was the right choice, and it’s not fair to assume that he would have ended up a reliever in our organization.
oh yeah, i agree dudier.
and i think i remember hearing that royals may still try crow out as a starter.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
I always favor development.
Probably the only place, time, or instance in which I ever will say something “conservative” is with regard to player development. It’s just so shortsighted to rush a guy to the major leagues. Crow should have started the year at AA, and once he proved he could dominate there he could have been promoted. The Royals weren’t winning anything this year, and they obviously didn’t need him in their bullpen. It did no good at all, for him or the team, to have him in the big leagues this year. See also every tigers pitcher.
yup, yup, you're preaching to the choir.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Well ...
AMP generally has treated pitchers pretty cautiously in terms of development, I’ll give him that. I feel like Crow likely would have been kept a starter here, and probably not be in the majors quite yet (particularly if he performed the same way he has in the KC organization). Of course if Crow were here, he would have experienced some inexplicable 5 mph drop in velocity and developed arm problems once he got to the major leagues, but I suppose that’s another story.
if amp has been cautious wrt to development...
what do you consider aggressive?
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that MacPhail likes to pretend he's cautious
but then one injury and Chris Tillman or Brian Matusz is in the big leagues.
Giraffes have absurdly strong necks.
Or Zach Britton, for that matter.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
now that i think of it...
doesn’t “penny wise, pound foolish” sort of seem like an apropos mantra for the macphail regime?
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's fair.
The Matusz and Britton promotions really bothered me.
He tends to be a bit more cautious, I suppose, with respect to MiL progression of pitchers. Or is even that a reach?
At some point
I think it was last year, I looked at inning totals and individual game pitch counts and figured at that broad outlook, it’s tough to argue that the Orioles haven’t been as careful as they can be.
Nowadays, not only am I unhappy with that process I used, I’m also much more finely tuned to the rate of progression and promotion in the minor leagues. I don’t know what it all means, but if I could give you a system that keeps pitchers healthy….well, I’d probably work for Tampa Bay.
Alright, whatever.
Let's look at Alfredo Simon's starts real quick
in Boston: 4.2 IP, 3 R, 3 BB, 1 K, 0 HR
Cleveland: 7 IP, 2 R, 1 BB, 5 K, 0 HR
Anaheim: 6.2 IP, 2 R, 1 BB, 3 K, 0 HR
in Toronto: 5 IP, 3 R, 2 BB, 7 K, 1 HR
in Kansas City: 7 IP, 1 R, 1 BB, 3 K, 0 HR
Toronto: 5.2 IP, 6 R, 0 BB, 3 K, 1 HR
Detroit: 4.2 IP, 4 R, 3 BB, 1 K, 1 HR
In Oakland: 5.1 IP, 6 R, 2 BB, 3 K, 2 HR
In Minnesota: 8 IP, 1 R, 1 BB, 8 K, 1 HR
So, some really good starts against Minnesota, Kansas City, Cleveland, and Toronto. Some awful starts against Boston, Oakland, and Detroit. Some middling starts against Toronto and Anaheim.
At this quick glance, Simon looks like another guy for the big pile at the back end of the rotation to me.
Alright, whatever.
Um yeah pretty much
Of course, this must be taken in Orioles perspective. As in, our back end of the rotation guys would be most teams’ long relief or maybe not even on the team guys. But yes, if you mean that right now he’s firmly implanted in the big pile of unreliable SP garbage we’re working with on our club right now, I agree. The difference between him and Tillman, Britton, Hunter, whoever right now is his age and that magical P word that keeps us sane: Potential
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
yes, but...
britton and tillman still have high ceilings. hunter is more or less what he is. i guess it’s fair to say that simon may have a little space to grow (and, i swear, i’m not talking about his weight), but we don’t know.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Does Tillman still have a high ceiling?
I hope so. But I wasn’t aware this was still something we were saying/thinking.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Aug 24, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a very tough sell that Tillman still has a "high ceiling."
He’s a mechanical disaster, he is wildly inconsistent from pitch to pitch (let alone inning to inning and start to start), and he only has two quality pitches. It baffles me that a guy who once threw mid 90s now sits consistently in the 89-91 range, and it further baffles me that he seems to have abandoned the cutter that made him successful by giving him a legitimate third pitch (I liked Kranitz, and if I recall the cutter was his idea) … but I really think it’s a tough sell to think that Tillman will develop the kind of mechanical consistency or legitimate third pitch that would allow him to become an average or better MLB starter. At this point, i think they seriously have to consider moving him to the bullpen, seeing if his velocity returns to that 94ish range where he could be successful with only two pitches. I think there’s no question that his trade value is shot from where it was even a year ago, that his MLB performance (while suffering, to be sure, from some Orioles classic organization attention-deficit … which seems to start and end with Buck, I might add) has made him the classic sell-low candidate. I hope that they do not sell low; instead, they would be better served getting him mlb innings in the bullpen and seeing what happens.
isn't simon a free agent at the end of the season?
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
i believe...
it is potentially an arb year.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought he was signed as a 6th minor league free agent so he can decline arb and enter free agency?
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
crap I hit post too early
I don’t really understand how that works.
Giraffes have absurdly strong necks.
maybe this is wrong...
but i thought i read on roch or melewski the other day that it was possible that simon could qualify for super 2?
did i imagine that?
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
ah...
make of it what you will!
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
ah yes, thanks man!
so we have him for the next six years. woohoo!
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
er three years i mean!
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Bullpen.
He has one pitch, the sinking fastball, and he only sometimes has command of that. Guys with two pitches can’t make it as a starter. Soooo … bullpen.
And while we’re there, speaking of guys who have less than three mlb-quality pitches … now that Tillman has shot any possible trade value that he might one have had, when do we make him a reliever? He should be able to get his fb velocity consistently into the 94+ range as a reliever, so he probably profiles pretty well as a middle reliever (perhaps even with some late-innings potential).
He has an excellent splitter
and actually a decent curve ball. It’s all about command – not only having one pitch.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I don't think you can "have" a pitch if have no idea where it is going.
I don’t know, his “excellent” splitter is probably more like above-average, and the mechanical issues and lack of command make it tough to consider it as a pitch that he “has” on most days; Similarly, I have a tough time buying his curve as even average – his complete lack of command of the curve and inability ever to throw it down in the zone make it virtually a nonentity on most days. I buy that he has decent break on the curve, but it’s not a decent pitch for him. In my view, he has 1-2 mlb pitches which makes him better-suited for the bullpen.
What are you talking about?
He throws strikes with both his splitter and his curve and throws both of them regularly. Sure he leaves a curve up now and then, but I never said he was a good pitcher – that’s what pitchers that aren’t good do.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Fair enough.
We disagree on the consistency of his splitter. My point was that he has 1-2 pitches per outing, and that you generally need three as a MLB starter … so that he should be considered a bullpen pitcher, if anything at all.
But that's not true at all.
He throws his fastball 49% of the time, his curve ball 23% of the time, and his split 19% of the time. You might not like the quality of the pitcher, but he’s clearly not a 1-2 pitch pitcher in almost any of his outings.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Not true
what they aren’t great at is distinguishing between similar pitches like a two seam fastball and a cutter or a splitter and a changeup, but his pitches are not at all similar.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
the pitch classifications on fangraphs come from BIS
and those are entered in manually. It’s not like gameday, which relies on a computer algorithm to classify the pitch based on speed and break. They are as precise as you’re likely to find anywhere.
Alright, whatever.
wow, good to know
damn, that’s a lot of work.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Let's assume they get the pitches correct, then.
I’ve read a bunch of stuff, even over at HBT and the like, that question … but BIS is for real. So I’ll definitely concede the point that Fangraphs is as good as anything non-proprietary, anything that we have access too in terms of pitch recognition.
Per fangraphs, Simon ranks below-average on every single one of his pitch type values on the season; he doesn’t have a single above-average pitch this year. Curiously, they actually like his changeup the best this year (and his splitter the best for his career, which makes sense); they HATE his fastball, and I was giving him some benefit of the doubt there. He’s 30 years old. You seem to agree that he has 1-2 quality pitches. My original conclusion was, “Guys with two pitches can’t make it as a starter. Soooo … bullpen.” I’ll concede that his splitter is, at least at times, a quality pitch. It doesn’t change my opinion that he is best suited for the bullpen. I still feel like that is fair.
Well I don't really know how fangraphs assessment of the quality of the pitches works
but I was just pointing out that he clearly is a 3 pitch pitcher.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
He's toolsy!
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
based on what andrew said
they have some dudier who watches each pitch and enters in a pitch type. like i said before, it sounds like labor intensive work. not to mention, we’re assuming whoever BIS hire is qualified to identify pitches.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
I mean, they hired Andrew, so it's not like they have high standards
Giraffes have absurdly strong necks.
Or a plan to succeed
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
this is why all of you people deserve the Orioles
Alright, whatever.
by Andrew_G on Aug 24, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well done.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you mean "you people?"
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
What do YOU mean, "you people"?
C’mon, someone had to do it….
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
As Foreigner once said, “You’re as cold as ice!”
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
70s super group foreigner?
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell yeah baby. You know I wrote of review of Dazed and Confused right?!
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
wait, seriously?
(to the latter, not the former)
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
ah, yes...
a gem, sir.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Err, those are Loverboy songs, and everyone knows Loverboy sucked
"Real Orioles don't pout. Real Orioles don't gloat. Real Orioles just win."
by NewYorkOriole on Aug 24, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
And I am truly sorry to inflict that particular version of the song upon you
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
I'm not talking about the identification
I’m talking about how they judge the effectiveness of a pitch.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
fangraphs has a "nasty" factor?
or are you talking about movement?
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
But he's not.
Because he doesn’t have three effective pitches. Which was my point from the beginning.
He consistently throws 3 pitches
According to fangraphs he’s a no-pitch pitcher if that’s how you’re going to handle this.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
remember
the pitch values on fangraphs are relative to average, not (as you might be thinking) relative to replacement level. I don’t think anyone thinks of Simon as an above average pitcher, do they (with his 94 ERA+)? But that’s hardly the same thing as an incompetent pitcher.
Alright, whatever.
Is it subjective?
Like the person watching and identifying the pitches has an “average” curve ball and mind and says “Simon’s curve ball seems like a 50 to me if 100 is average”?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
no
the pitch values comes from (and this is off the top of my head, so there’s a built in error factor here) the results of those pitches converted into runs.
The person watching the game only marks what kind of pitch it appears to be, he doesn’t make a value judgement on it.
Alright, whatever.
very interesting, you are a fountain of information Andrew.
it’s fun comparing the pitch values of weak sauce to cliff lee. simon fb: – 5. lee fb: 24.7. weak sauce uses three pitches and they all suck balls. sigh.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Not subjective ...
it’s results-based. Virtually nothing fangraphs does is subjective in the way you are describing.
Right ... 0 is league-average.
But Simon doesn’t have a single above-average pitch this year (and only one above-average pitch, the one he throws least often, for his career … not counting the slider, which he almost never throws). It seems silly to have a below-average 30 y/o in the rotation, and with 1-2 borderline effective pitches (and nothing resembling even an average third pitch), he would be most effective in the bullpen.
I'm not sure what you think the argument is
I never said that Simon is a good major league starter or ever would be – just that his performance this year has been perfectly adequate for a number 5 starter. Then you said that a number 5 starter IS development position even though most of the league doesn’t treat it as such. Then you said that he’s a 1-2 pitch pitcher and I was just demonstrating that he regularly throws three pitches – I didn’t say anything about the effectiveness of those pitches.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
one correction
I did say that his splitter was excellent and his curve was decent and I stand by that – I think they get hit (and thus get a low pitch value from fangraphs) has to do with location.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
And we’re back to square one … how can someone have an “excellent” or “decent” pitch that they can’t command? Objectively, these pitches do not appear to be “excellent” or “decent,” so I’m going to go ahead and disagree.
So while you’re preaching precision of language, perhaps you should say that both of those pitches have “decent” break or movement, if that’s what you mean. Because a pitch can’t be “excellent” or “decent” if a guy can’t command it, and if it results frequently in a ball or hit. You won’t get any argument from me that Alfredo’s problem is largely with his command.
A pitch is just a tool
It still has to be executed effectively. His splitter has lots of movement, good velocity, and is deceptive – that’s what I mean when I say it’s excellent. Just because he leaves it belt high 3-4 times a game doesn’t mean it’s not a good pitch.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Just because he leaves it belt high 3-4 times a game doesn’t mean it’s not a good pitch.
First, I’m guessing your 3-4 number is purely subjective; if it’s not then let me know how you’re quantifying it. Anyhow, let’s accept it as true … assuming he throws 3-4 bad splitters per game (out of the 18 or so he throws – taking fangraphs numbers at face value … 19% of 95 is 18), by your math Simon throws a “good” splitter 78% percent of the time. And that’s his best pitch, the only one that he has thrown above-average for his entire career (again, not this year, because this year he doesn’t have any above-average pitches … but for his career). Your saying that he throws his best pitch effectively 78% of the time, and that the other 81% of pitches that he throws in any game aren’t even as good as those. I’m not really sure where you’re going with this. In point of fact, it seems like “just because he leaves it belt high [however many times per game he actually does]” absolutely means that it is not a good pitch. But regardless, what exactly do you propose he does for his other 77 pitches per game?
This conversation is moving steadily toward the absurd. “Good” is a reach even for the splitter, but let’s assume you’re right that he has a “good” splitter. Is your point that he can get guys out by throwing 100 splitters per game? Or does he need another effective pitch or two? I said that as a pitcher with 1-2 effective pitches, he is better used in the bullpen. You disagree, otherwise we would not be having this conversation. Sooooo … back to square one?
I was completely making up the 3-4 times per game
I have no idea how fangraphs calculates their pitch values, but I would assume that if you give up a HR on a splitter it drastically impacts the pitch value for the splitter. You’re saying that for a pitch to be a good pitch it has to be thrown effectively over 78% of the time? That’s just ridiculous. Only the best pitchers in the league throw their breaking pitches effectively at a very high rate (and 80% sure seems very high to me), and we’re talking about a number 5 pitcher.
That’s my entire point this whole time – his stuff is just fine FOR A NUMBER 5 PITCHER. Look around the league (as I already showed you with my “strawman argument”) – number 5 pitchers are shitty!
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
No no no … we’re talking about a guy who throws his best pitch effectively 78% of the time. It just so happens that his best pitch is the one he throws only 19% of the time. He throws his other pitches much less effectively than that. Be precise with your language, remember? I thought that’s what you were learnin’ me here.
Prove to me that he throws his best pitch effectively 78% of the time then.
You’re trying to change the course of the argument again. I’ll break it down for you:
1) You said he had 1 pitch – I proved that he regularly throws 3 pitches.
2) You said that the number 5 rotation slot is for development – I proved that almost nobody’s number 5 is a development project.
How you got to the quality of simon’s pitches and whether he throws his best pitch x% of the time I have absolutely no idea.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Ha!!! I took YOUR assertion that he throws 3-4 bad splitters per game. That one is on you.
1) You said he had 1 pitch – I proved that he regularly throws 3 pitches.
This continues to make me laugh. Your best argument now is that I meant he throws one pitch, not one mlb-quality pitch. Pretty funny.
I proved that almost nobody’s number 5 is a development project.
No you didn’t, you picked a handfull of teams and didn’t even give each of their fifth starter precisely. Regardless, I’m fine with changing this to say that a number of teams effectively have used the fifth starter role as developmental, and that I think it is a good decision to use it that way. We’ve had that discussion; Trigger is dead, and you continue to throttle.
No YOU said I picked a "handful" of teams
even though I referenced every playoff contending team there is. Are there “good rotations” on non-playoff contenders that are using their number 5 rotation spot for development? The only teams among playoff contenders even close are the Braves and TB in which almost all of the rotation spots are being used for development.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Virtually all pitchers "have" three pitches by your definition.
Everyone save for, say, Mo Rivera.
Effective starters, most often (not speaking in absolutes) actually have three effective pitches, and often the difference between being an effective starting pitcher and not is developing a third quality pitch. Generally, the guys who have two effective pitches but can’t develop a quality third pitch end up being decent bullpen options. (Of course, there are other reasons why guys get sent to the bullpen … reasons related to stamina, or circumstantial reasons like the organization has better rotation options, etc.) If your point is that Simon has two serviceable pitches – the fastball and splitter – then the chances of him being an average or better MLB starter is very slim (particularly given that neither his fastball or splitter is THAT good compared to the league average). Bringing us back to my point … that if he is to be serviceable at all, it will/should be in the bullpen. Because he doesn’t have a legitimate mlb-quality third pitch.
So when I’m saying that a guy “has” a pitch, I mean it actually is effective. Just being able to spin a ball toward the plate doesn’t mean a guy “has” a curve ball.
Again this isn't true at all
You can find tons of pitchers that throw a high percentage of fastballs and then have a secondary pitch and a third pitch that they never throw. That is not the case for simon at all – he throws 50% fastballs and then has two offspeed pitches that he throws very often. There’s a difference between “having” a pitch and throwing it all the time and Simon has three pitches that he throws all the time.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
You can find tons of pitchers that throw a high percentage of fastballs and then have a secondary pitch and a third pitch that they never throw.
Not really, not starters. Starters, generally, have three effective pitches (and it certainly helps if 1-2 of those are above-average or better and the third is at least average). I find it interesting, I guess, that you think just because he throws “two offspeed pitches … very often,” that they are effective. Curiously, I suppose (particularly given that I find his curve to be a pretty atrocious pitch and you seem to agree), fangraphs likes his split and curve much better than they do his fastball. Regardless, we’re talking about a pitcher who doesn’t have a single pitch that is above league-average this year. And you still seem to be arguing that it’s appropriate to have him in the rotation (where my initial point was that – if anywhere – he would be effective in the bullpen because he doesn’t have a quality third pitch).
Look at number 5s around the league
they are shitty. That was my only point. After that you made incorrect assertions that he only throws 1-2 pitches (proven incorrect) and that the number 5 slot IS for development (despite the fact that almost no teams currently have a developing pitcher in the number 5 slot).
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
After that you made incorrect assertions that he only throws 1-2 pitches
Sure didn’t. Love the straw-man arguments though, you just keep ’em coming. I said he only had 1-2 effective pitches … and even that is a reach.
and that the number 5 slot IS for development (despite the fact that almost no teams currently have a developing pitcher in the number 5 slot).
We’ve had that conversation already. You are right that i improperly spoke in an absolute … that I instead should have said “good teams have effectively used the number five spot as developmental,” and even that I favor that approach as a way to limit innings for good young pitchers. I gave several examples, and there are many more, of how teams use the 5 slot (the slot that is often skipped) in order to prolong a pitcher deeper into a season. The argument about teams not needing to limit innings for rookies holds no water at all, as it is virtually always a consideration this time of year for many playoff teams (and many guys just flat-out are shut down in their 1st and 2nd MLB seasons). To argue otherwise would be silly.
Revisionist history is always fun
but here is your direct quote about him only having one pitch:
He has one pitch, the sinking fastball, and he only sometimes has command of that. Guys with two pitches can’t make it as a starter. Soooo … bullpen.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Quit making straw-man arguments!!
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And I’ve admitted that I tanked it on which pitch he throws well. In truth, his fastball actually is pretty awful. The splitter has been above-average in the past but is below-average this year. So what you’re saying is that if I had said: “he has one pitch, the splitter, and he only sometimes has command of that. [Even] Guys with two pitches can’t [generally] make it as a starter. Soooo … bullpen” that you wouldn’t have felt the need to reply at all?
Your comment had nothing to do with which pitch he throws well
You said he only had one pitch! He has three pitches. This is really very simple. If you actually meant that he only has one effective pitch then you should have said that.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
In the post that you keep quoting, read the next paragraph.
speaking of guys who have less than three mlb-quality pitches
So after all of this, the part you have your undies in a bunch over, is that you think that I thought he actually only throws one pitch? That you couldn’t actually figure out that I mean he throws one pitch effectively? That’s hilarious. I have a tough time believing that.
My assumption
was that you thought he had other pitches in his arsenal but didn’t use him, which was confirmed by statements such as:
My point was that he has 1-2 pitches per outing, and that you generally need three as a MLB starter
He very clearly throws 3 pitches per outing on a very consistent basis.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
And in virtually everything I have written, it is pretty clear that I’m talking about effective pitches. Even in the very first post, which you have quoted time and time again for the premise that, somehow, I thought Simon threw a fastball 100% of the time. Generally, an effective mlb starter needs three effective pitches (not 1-2). Do you disagree?
As I said
I thought you meant that he primarily throws fastball and doesn’t have any off speed pitches that he relies on – which is usually what people mean when they say somebody is a one-pitch pitcher.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
And that pretty clearly wasn’t the case given everything I’ve written, including what was written in the very post that you have quoted for the premise that I thought he throws 100% fastballs. Soooo … yeah.
I'll be back later
and will pull some data on other starters to point out the ridiculousness of your assertion that he doesn’t have the pitch arsenal to be a number 3 starter.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Okay, sounds good.
Make sure you include command of pitches into the equation, though – you seem to leave that out when it is inconvenient to your argument. In other words, I feel like it would be silly to list a bunch of guys who throw a fastball, curve and splitter without seeing who throws each pitch well. I’m excited to learn how many MLB number-three starters have 0-1 league-average or better pitches.
...
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Junebug OGed!
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
Forget the splitter
These guys need the spitter.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
i would say two pitches
fastball and that sinking fastball based on the times that i watch him (yes, i know pitchfx might say something different). of course, randy johnson did quite well being a two pitch pitcher.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
That's fine isn't it?
We’re not really expecting our number 5 to dominate the good teams are we? I’d be cool with a guy that muddles along against the good teams and handles the bad teams.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
We're just traumatized by our whole team being #5 starters or worse.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Its really sad when you're number 5 starter is really your number 1.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
The number five spot in a good rotation is developmental.
It’s for the guy who is adjusting to the big leagues, the guy who has 1-3 starter potential, who has succeeded in the minor leagues and who needs a year or two in the big leagues to continue developing and adjusting to the major leagues. See, e.g. how the Red Sox used it to develop Lester and Buchholz, how the Yankees have used it with Ian Nova (and previously for Phil Hughes). Ideally, it’s for the Jake Arrieta’s of the world (or the Chris Tillmans, coming into this season). So maybe it’s semantics, maybe we’re talking about a 4th starter (who I buy in terms of your description above), but I don’t think you really are looking for below-average MLB pitchers — who profile as below-average or average at best — to slot into a rotation for the long term. I think the hope is that your 1-4 end up being above-average pitchers with the fifth guy being the developmental kid, and that makes for a strong rotation.
I think we know what we have with Simon. I think we have a guy who throws relatively hard, who has 1-2 pitches in most of his outings (and almost never has anything resembling a serviceable breaking ball), who struggles mechanically, and who is turning 30 years old soon. It’s a real stretch to say he has a whole lot of development left in him, so I just think he’s a complete waste of a rotation spot at this point.
I didn't realize that's what the number 5 spot was for...
Let’s just take a look around the league and see if this theory holds water. I’ll just go with playoff contenders since they obviously have better rotations:
Boston – Wakefield or Andrew Miller is probably their number 5 and neither is developing for 1-3 potential.
NY – Garcia or Colon is probably their number 5 – are they developing???
Philly – here’s probably a better case for your argument, but Worley was never a prospect and never ever considered a potential 1-3.
Just for fun – the Nats #5 is probably Gorzelanny – is he developing??
Tigers #5 is probably Phil Coke – he has 1-3 written all over him!
Cleveland’s #5 is probably Mitch Talbot – another future ace just getting some developing done in the 5 slot. lol
Chicago’s is probably Peavy – just getting his development in.
Rangers is probably Colby Lewis who’s going nowhere.
Likewise the Angels Piniero, the DBacks Zach Duke, the Giants Voglesong/Zito, or whichever 29 year old you want to include from the Brewers that’s not going anywhere near anybody’s 1-3 slots.
So while it’s a nice theory that the number 5 spot in the rotation is for development, what it actually is for is your worst starting pitcher so that they can do the least amount of damage and hopefully have the fewest starts.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
He's kind of got a point
In the sense that if your options for a #5 starter are a young guy with potential or veteran who’s ~30 y/o and has bounced around the league, and you expect similar results from each of them, you want to go with the young guy with a chance to develop.
Also Simon turned 30 in May I believe
/twistedlogic’ed
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are you bringing me into this?!
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you want your young guy to be the guy who gets the fewest starts and is most likely to be skipped when there are off days?
That makes no sense. And also he didn’t say that’s what you WANT your rotation to be – he said that’s what it is in good rotations which clearly isn’t true.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I'll give you that
he didn’t say that’s what you WANT your rotation to be – he said that’s what it is in good rotations which clearly isn’t true.
Another blogger crucified for talking in absolutes – the cardinal sin of Camden Chat.
But yeah, you want your young guy to skip a few starts and have off days. Doesn’t everyone always want to limit the inning pitched on a young prospect every year?
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
If you want to limit innings pitched you shut him down at the end of the year, but you want him getting used to pitching every 5th day. Save the bouncing around for the guy you don’t give a shit about it which is usually your number 5.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Cherry-picking a team's worst starter and calling him the "number 5" isn't fair.
The fifth guy in the rotation is the one you skip – this is well-used to limit innings. I’m not talking about the fifth best pitcher in every rotation, I’m talking about the fifth starter. Again, the way the Yankees have used Nova (who s at 124 innings, plus 16 MiL), they way they used Hughes, the way the Sox used Buchholz and even Lester a few years ago, and absolutely the way the Phillies are using Worley (or Kendrick). If you are a competitive team and you have a young pitcher who you want to be pitching in September and October, you need to skip his starts. Thus … good teams use the fifth rotation spot as developmental.
Mid-season, playoff quality teams often will add a veteran starter if they have a rookie who is (a) struggling, or (b) on an innings cap that they might be up against in the playoffs, etc. And certainly injuries play a key role in all of this, as many teams mid-season or late-season are left to fill in rotation spots as necessary. Order changes, for sure, as does the skipped pitcher (for various reasons, including injuries and the like).
For the record, Miller is still developmental, so that’s not a good one for your point necessarily. Plus, Boston has been hit hard with injuries (Buchholz being the biggest one) and they didn’t really have a need for a developmental starter coming into the season, or an obvious candidate ready to take it. But they historically have used the fifth spot in the rotation very well as a developmental slot for a young starter.
So this must be the day for arguments that don’t really exist … are you really disputing that it is effective to use – that good teams effectively use – the fifth rotation spot as developmental (where they can skip starts and limit innings)? That in the ideal world, we have four solid starting pitchers – none of whom is a 30 y/o who struggles to throw his pitches for strikes – and that we would use the fifth slot (the one we skip) for a developmental starter with 1-3 rotation potential who is adjusting to the major leagues? (Again, the way that guys like Hughes, Nova, Buchholz, Lester, etc. were brought into the league?)
and absolutely the way the Phillies are using Worley (or Kendrick)
Only problem with is that Blanton is supposed to be the Phillies 5th starter, and would go against your developmental theory. Worley and Kendrick only got starts out of necessity.
And necessity obviously plays in. The Phillies didn’t have a “developmental” starter at all this year. Like the Red Sox to start the year. So it kind of obviates discussion of those teams entirely.
Even with Worley
he’s the number 5 because he was clearly the worst option available when the rotation was set. This really isn’t very complicated.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Well....he's the number 5 because the original number 5 is gone.
But yeah….your point still stands.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't taking their worst starter
I was taking generally the guy with the fewest starts who’s still an actual starter and in the cases where I know the team well enough the guy that the team considers their number 5. It’s not difficult to do in most cases.
And who gives a shit what the yankees or red sox did a few years ago? Again you said it as a present tense statement:
The number five spot in a good rotation is developmental.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Miller is still developmental???
Come on.
And I’m not disputing that it’s effective to run the rotation that way – just that it’s not what’s actually done. You said it as a statement of fact that in a good rotation the number 5 spot is for development and that’s clearly not the case at all. If you had said it as a preference or that you think it’s the best way to run a rotation I wouldn’t have said anything.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Miller had fewer than 300 MLB innings coming into the season, and he’s 26 y/o.
Good teams have effectively used the that way, and continue to effectively use it that way; in my opinion, the five-spot int he rotation is best used for development, which is how many good teams have used it effectively. I’ll retrofit my comment to that, so as to retroactively avoid the conversation where you chastise me for “speaking in absolutes” and try to make things up to disprove the point that many teams effectively use the fifth spot in the rotation for development, for good young pitchers with 1-3 type potential who have succeeded in the minor leagues to adjust/transition to the major leagues. That fair?
And there's a reason for that
He lost tons of velocity! He’s basically Brian Matusz two years from now if his velocity never returns – are we going to say he’s still developing then?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
oh god…
Contribootin': Music City Miracles.
by danielreese05 on Aug 24, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
So let's say, hypothetically, that you were a playoff team ...
And that your rookie pitcher pitched as well as Britton did for his first month or so, or as well as someone like Hellickson, Pineda, Beachy, Nova, Worley, etc. has pitched this year. Let’s say, hypothetically, that your rookie is one of your four best pitchers headed into September. Don’t you want them available in October? So running them out every fifth day, not skipping starts throughout the season to the point that now they are completely unavailable for your stretch and postseason run seems a bit shortsighted, doesn’t it?
Good teams manage the innings without having to worry about it
see Worley’s innings count for the season and the two seasons leading up to this season.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
You mean they skip starts to manage innings?
Interesting. Could it be that using a young pitcher in that fifth starter role, the one generally skipped for off-days and the like, would be an effective way of managing innings for young pitchers? If only someone had said that … so what exactly are you arguing again?
No I don't mean that at all.
I mean they build up their young guys innings in the minors so that when they get to the majors they don’t have to skip starts.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Just ignore this.
He’s doing the same thing he did to me earlier with the Pie thing.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Him.
I’m telling you to just ignore it. He did that same “why don’t you argue against what I wrote” thing to me too.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I thought I noticed that
I also didn’t remember having a recent Pie argument, although it certainly wasn’t impossible. haha
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
it's funny ...
You’re applauding someone else who uses straw-man arguments. So yeah, fun rhetorical device there by the both of ya’.
Just curious
When you say “straw-man arguments” are you changing the definition to mean that when you make a statement that is factually incorrect (like saying that in a good rotation the number spot is definitively for development) the other person disproves it using evidence?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Nahh … but you know that already. It’s fun to over-state and someone’s point so that your rebuttal seems smarter, isn’t it? Twisted did the same on the Pie thing … this all is pretty funny to me.
Is it overstating when you cut and paste their comment and then refute it?
I’m leaning all kinds of new definitions today.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I don’t know, his "excellent" splitter is probably more like above-average, and the mechanical issues and lack of command make it tough to consider it as a pitch that he "has" on most days; Similarly, I have a tough time buying his curve as even average – his complete lack of command of the curve and inability ever to throw it down in the zone make it virtually a nonentity on most days. I buy that he has decent break on the curve, but it’s not a decent pitch for him. In my view, he has 1-2 mlb pitches which makes him better-suited for the bullpen.
And you argued from there. I guess that post was unclear when I wrote it the first time, huh? It was my second post in this conversation, and it’s clear I’m talking about pitches of MLB quality (not simply “throwing” a pitch) … so you don’t even have miscommunication as a defense here.
So your point is that Simon is a good choice in the rotation moving forward, right? And that he has three mlb-quality pitches. Because otherwise … hrm …
As I said
I don’t think the fangraphs pitch value is a good way to judge the quality of the pitch itself – if it’s based on the outcome of the pitch then it’s much more about execution than actual movement/speed/location of break which is what the actual pitch is.
And absolutely given the current crop of choices Simon is a good choice for the rotation.
As far as “mlb-quality pitches”, even if you use fangraphs methodology are you really going to say his curve ball is not mlb-quality at -0.3 and his splitter at -0.9 when 0.0 is average? Come on.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Except you don't seem to know what a "straw-man argument" is.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I know what a Crazy Straw argument is
Which one is CRAZIER!! I do not want a longer path between my drink and my mouth.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
but a bitch to clean
especially if you’d been drinking milk.
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
colon is the yanks' #5?
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Phil Hughes might be their number 5 right now.
I think it was originally intended for Garcia to be that guy.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not sure who they are skipping these days,
but i thought it was garcia. you can’t skip CC. nova and hughes have been great lately. colon has been solid all year. but maybe they’re trying to limit nova’s innings so maybe he skipped whenever there’s an off day.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
I think the rotation at the beginning of the season was supposed to be CC, Hughes, Nova, Colon, Garcia
Both Colon and Garcia were considered questionable to return to form.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't believe...
hughes made the team out of st. 1-2 was cc and burnett, i’d think.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
i forgot about burnett
i thought i heard girardi say they’re sticking by him for now?
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Oh right. I totally forgot about Burnett.
One of either Hughes and Nova shouldn’t be there.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah...
i think nova got the call over hughes out of camp and it was a big shock/disappointment.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea yea yea
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
They have a 6 man rotation right now
and no one is being skipped
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
also,
i must say that i’m annoyed that orioles sign shitty veterans who turn out to be shitty while the yankees sign two shitty starters who turn out to be good.
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
Yes they get all that money, and some luck too
And we get nothing. Awesome.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
That's only until the double header on Sat.
What they’ll do after that is go with 6 in 5 spots. That is, Colon misses a turn, Garcia misses a turn, Burnett misses a turn, everyone but CC & the 2 kids.
This 1) preserves the geezers for the playoffs and 2) avoids telling the delusional Burnett that he’s a mop up man in Oct.
Right now it’s pretty much
1 – CC
2a – Nova
2b – Garcia
2c – Colon
2d – Hughes
"If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause."
- George Clinton
Garcia's been on the DL for a few weeks too
he’s coming off in one of the Saturday DH games
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, the bizzare kitchen accident
that’s how they’ve been going with 5 for a while.
"If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause."
- George Clinton
Yeah
The story is that he cut his finger in the kitchen. Not serious, but he couldn’t throw a sinker. They kept saying “day-to-day” and “hopes to make his next start”. Then they suddenly DLed him. As of now they’re still saying he’ll be ready for the Sat. DH.
"If you don't like the effect, don't produce the cause."
- George Clinton
Whenever I see DH here I still think David Hernandez.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
Osfan21
how are you feeling about your 10-28 finish to the season? already a 1/5th of the way there!
"Grow nothing, buy the 'Pen" (Wieters Weiners)
He's busy writing Nick's offseason workout program
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
The whole team needs a freakin' offseason workout program.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
What it needs is an offseason suckectomy.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
We are currently playing the only bad team remaining on the schedule.
But obviously I should have waited to make the bet until after this series.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I agree that you should have waited
haha, they are hot right now!
"Grow nothing, buy the 'Pen" (Wieters Weiners)
by IggesRule13 on Aug 24, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
what's the bet?
meaningless game in a mostly meaningless season of meaningless meaninglessness. emperor nobody, A's Nation.
10 wins out of the 38 remaining games
only 4 are against teams with a winning record and 27 are against the AL East.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
And his first name is Shaquille. We got Shaq!
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
This is huge
Obviously our best recruit since Vasquez, maybe since the guys on the National Championship team. I think Vasquez was ranked in the 60s nationally, this guy is #29. But more importantly, this is the reason we hired Turgeon, to get this guy and to open the gates to getting the twins and whoever else from Houston. Turgeon is worthless without these connections so, so far so good!
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure I'd say Turgeon is worthless otherwise, and we were the favorite for Cleare even before GW retired.
I’m not sure how long we can keep the TX pipeline open beyond recruits Turgeon already had contact with, but this really helps field a competitive team while Turgeon develops a reputation in DC/Baltimore (and hopefully nationally). Mike Jones was our most recent recruit ranked higher than Cleare.
Well when you consider the other head coaching options we were looking at
Then look at the out of the blue hiring of Turgeon amidst all the names that were being thrown around, I just remember thinking to myself, "Man he better lock up those Houston AAU kids or this is just another mediocre major conference coach.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh, thats not the impression I got at all
A lot of people were very impressed with the Turgeon hire, and it sounds like he may actually been ahead of Miller on the list. If it was between Miller, Turgeon, and Mike Brey, which it seems like it was, I’ll gladly take Turgeon. Especially since he was smart enough to keep Bino and grab Delonte Hill.
I'd absolutely take Miller
But it seemed like he turned us down or was just using us as leverage to get a better deal.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Miller's the kind of coach that if he wanted to come, i wouldn't want him
He would have just as willing to leave Maryland as he was Arizona and Xavier. The only school Turgeon is possibly leaving for is Kansas, and if he does well enough for Kansas to want him as Self’s replacement, then thats a win for Maryland.
BP on Machado:
Machado entered professional baseball as the third overall selection in the 2010 draft, carrying the lofty expectations attached to the high draft perch and the always provocative "five-tool potential" label. I love seeing that label; it’s like seeing Sherilyn Fenn walk into a room at any point from 1990 to 1993. You just know something awesome is possible.
Machado has acclimated to professional ball like most scouts thought he would, showing off a plus-plus potential hit tool, developing in-game power, a mature approach, and the defensive skills to excel at shortstop. He has yet to turn 19 and his tools still have a long journey to the height of their developmental arc, but if everything continues as planned, Machado will have an All-Star level ceiling, plus offensive tools, and above-average chops from a premium defensive position. He could always physically outgrow shortstop, but from what I can see, he looks like he can handle the part. He’s the Leader of the Pack (Present).
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=14844
"Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs." -- Earl Weaver
You know what sucks?
Being a market analyst/consultant during this recession.
I’ve been in the business world for 2 years now, and the whole time my job has been doing analyses that just show bad news after more bad news after crap.
The best news I’ve ever gotten to give is this one time when a previous analysis we’d done turned out to be slightly over-pessimistic, but not because the market had done better, but because I’d made a mistake.
Is there such a thing as economic good times? People say so…must be nice.
However, this is definitely better than being unemployed. so #whiningaboutnothing
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Aug 24, 2011 12:19 PM EDT reply actions
Try the over-optimistic outlook up here
When people are pumping cash into the Canadian dollar because of fears of investing the the US economy, which is in a very temporary slump. That pretty much put our dollar on par with yours, and it’s been kinda killing our economy in a number of sectors slowly, due to us being a very export-oriented nation. The US is far and away our biggest trade partner too, so if you’re hosed, we’re on a delayed hosing, but we’ll get hosed eventually as a result.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
Does that make us a bunch of hosers?
"Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.."
We are well taken off
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
The complete series of "The Wire" for $72.49
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Aight WW....what ya got today?
Nats and Marlins might be good ‘dogs. NYY and LAA look like pretty good bets to win, although I’m sure the odds reflect that. Minnesota will probably win too since I can’t imagine the Orioles get a sweep.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
Shit....you're right.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And I suggest you enjoy tonight and tomorrow's games
Because then it’s on to five games in four days against the Yankees.
Giraffes have absurdly strong necks.
Details.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If we're lucky, Hurricane Irene will rain out some games.
Of course, that just means more doubleheaders later.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Doubleheaders are good.
Gets the depression over with all in one day instead of prolonging the issue.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought this was cool AND funny.
It’s from June 21st, but still!
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
Just wanted to share
That recently I’ve been checking out some of the other blogs around SBN for my other teams and I’m glad CC was what originally brought me in or else I probably wouldn’t have stuck around.
Don’t get me wrong, some you folks are total, complete, and utter assholes, but holy crap the insults and blatant dickishness that is accepted and carried out at extended periods of time on some of the other blogs is kind of shocking and disappointing.
Obviously like anywhere it’s a mixed bag and there have certainly been useful posts and thoughtful conversation, but I think CC does a great job of providing good space to talk sports. And to give/take sophomoric shit from others in a healthy way.
Maybe it’s because our team sucks so bad it’s easier to spend more time being thoughtful about posts rather than staring at the train wreck on MASN.
by Nafer on Aug 24, 2011 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Fuck you, jerk!
Don’t call me an asshole!!
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I hang my head in shame.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought you were talking about O'sFan21
Giraffes have absurdly strong necks.
by Stacey on Aug 24, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
See I knew he was talking about me
and just didn’t give a shit.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Honey badger don't care.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks
I’m really only familiar with the other baseball blogs, and I tend to think they’re good for the most part.
One thing to remember is that a lot of those sites have many more participants than CC, and when a community like this gets big it either gets out of control or ends up being run by a tyrant.
Giraffes have absurdly strong necks.
The small market blogs just can't compete :-(
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We're not already run by a tyrant?
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
he was just talking about shaft.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
She calls herself "Bowser"
Does that sound like a benevolent dictator to you?
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
it might...
if your name is sha na na.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Aug 24, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Der Kommissar's in town
Uh oh.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
I think that's exactly it.
This site’s a good size right now, and yes when blogs get too big they get hard to read and follow. This is what happened to the football blog that GC and I link to and talk about way too much. It’s gotten to the point over there when you can’t get a word in edgewise on the gamethreads, and the comments section is really hard to follow.
But to give credit where it’s due, almost everyone on this blog knows their shit and formulates rational thoughts and sentences. A lot of other blogs around SBN simply don’t have many posts at all, or are just filled with people going “Yeah!” “Go ____!!!” “Fuckin Awesome!” over and over again.
So yeah I pretty much agree with all of this. Let’s all give ourselves a golf clap.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah!
Go CC!!! Fuckin’ Awesome!
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 24, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of which
I guess the quake cracked the tip of the Washington Coc – er Monument.
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
I don't believe you'd stop at the tip, mister!
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
I've been trying real hard to get into the football sites (Big Blue View mainly)
but, and this is gonna sound horribly dick-ish (but oh well), the intelligence level takes a HUGE dip. Maybe it’s the baseball vs football mentality, but humor, grammar, and sports knowledge all are no where near the level they are here. When I comment there I feel like I’m going to get trolled for spelling correctly and not using cliches and 7th grade level insults constantly.
But I do have to say Ed Valentine works his tail off over there.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
meh
This site was great until all the fucking cupcake posts happened.
NOW IT’S GONE TO HELL.
/JP’d
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
by zknower on Aug 24, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fuck it.
I want a cupcake.
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Aug 24, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
cupcakes ruined my internet.
Contribootin': Music City Miracles.
by danielreese05 on Aug 24, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
In memoriam...
Since it’s the end of the day and you won’t have to worry about it slowing down your comp all day…
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 24, 2011 3:57 PM EDT reply actions
Do we have a longer version of the bottom gif
When he goes all Dave-Chappelle-as-Howard-Dean?
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Have the Orioles passed anyone through waivers?
Or tried? I haven’t followed it too closely to be honest, but I haven’t seen anything on that. Guerrero, Gonzalez, etc.? I passively look at mlbtr, but no Orioles are listed on their “people who cleared waivers” list, and I haven’t seen news of anyone being claimed. Any ideas?
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Camden Chat
Related FanShots on Camden Chat
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Official Sponsor of Camden Chat GameThreads
