How Vlad is Making Me Doubt My Life as an Orioles Fan
by Andrew_G on Aug 9, 2011 5:06 PM EDT
in Commentary & Analysis
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I just saw the Baltimore Sun post the Orioles' lineup for tonight's game with the Chicago White Sox and I've finally snapped:
J.J. Hardy, SS
Nick Markakis, RF
Adam Jones, CF
Vladimir Guerrero, DH
Chris Davis, 1B
Mark Reynolds, 3B
Matt Wieters, C
Felix Pie, LF
Robert Andino, 2B
Jo-Jo Reyes, SP
It's become a joke of a joke, an abstract concept of an absurdity. The shell of Vladimir Guerrero continues to bat fourth on my favorite baseball team. I can take this no longer.
It has been over 110 games now in the 2011 season and the only two regular hitters on the team having a worse year at the plate than Guerrero are the left field faux-platoon-thingy of Nolan Reimold and Felix Pie. And still we march onward with Vlad batting in the number four spot, traditionally considered the premier offensive position in baseball.
There are three teams that have gotten worse production out of the 4-spot in the lineup than the Orioles. The Rays are a stunner in that department, but they have at least shuffled around (mainly) six different hitters into the spot. The Mariners have one of the all-time worst offenses, and they've shuffled through three different guys trying to find some hot cleanup batter. The Padres are another pretty depressing offensive unit, but they too have mixed and matched with four different cleanup hitters. If nothing else, those teams give the impression that they are trying to figure out something that works.
The Orioles have just Vlad. Matt Wieters is the second most used clean-up hitter. After tonight he is 80 games behind Guerrero.
Listen, I will happily tell anyone who wants to listen that it really does not matter one whit where Vlad Guerrero bats in this lineup, because he'll still get his plate appearances in and he'll still make his outs and the Orioles will still struggle to put runs on the board. From a production point of view I'm nitpicking.
But from the perspective of someone who, as Buck Showalter talked about during the Oriole Fanfest back in the winter, lives and dies with the team even when they play on the West Coast at midnight on a Tuesday, this is not just frustrating. Not just irritating. Not just maddening. It is literally making me wonder about why I even care so much about this baseball team.
The Orioles very much sold me on the hope of the young team and on their rebuilding philosophies and on Buck Showalter. And what I see out there every single night is a team that is unwilling to man up and tell a veteran hitter who is clearly at the end of his career that he needs to not be the main offensive threat in this lineup. Or maybe what I see is a team that doesn't understand that an accomplished former MVP is no longer even remotely a respectable hitter anymore. Or maybe what I see is a team that is on auto-pilot now, not caring enough to pretend to show me that they're paying attention to the non-performance of their most expensive offseason free agent signing.
I can't make heads or tails of them anymore.
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This was a topic in Texas last year as well
Particularly in the second half of the season and the playoffs, when Vlad was pretty terrible.
There were also stories, though, about how Vlad had “his” spot on the bus that no one else was to sit in, and there was a mindset that Vlad, because of what he’s done in the game and his legacy, is entitled to certain privileges. That included, I think, hitting cleanup…if he was in the lineup in 2010, he was going to hit cleanup, because he’s Vlad and that’s just the way things are done, even if Nelson Cruz or someone else was more worthy.
at least the O's haven't played him in the outfield
my knees are still recovering from how painful that looked out in San Fran last October.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the Orioles' season?
I wish somebody in the Orioles organization would have heard about those stories before deciding to sign Vlad.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 9, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn't surprise me if they did
And it wouldn’t surprise me (based on how Buck was in Texas) if Showalter specifically got him because he wanted him to be the Cleanup Hitter, because he is a Proven Veteran who Plays The Right Way.
Showalter always struck me as someone better suited to being an NFL coach, a Bill Parcells type who thinks he’s smarter than everyone else and can win as long as he has “his guys” who buy into his way of doing things.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 9, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, we're probably going to end up with some more of his guys around here.
The beat writer types have been reporting on Buck meeting with Angelos weekly and so the speculation has cropped up that MacPhail will be on the outs as GM (his contract’s up) and there will be some kind of Buck-approved choice. This probably sounds familiar to you.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 9, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
Grady Fuson was hired after 2001 to be the Rangers’ g.m. in waiting while John Hart ran the team for 3 years.
In the middle of 2004, Hicks and Fuson agreed on a deal for Fuson to take over for Hart after the season (he was assistant g.m. and already doing a lot of the g.m. stuff), but Showalter and then-pitching-coach Orel Hershiser went to Hicks and, supposedly, insinuated they’d leave after the season if Fuson were the g.m. Fuson and Buck didn’t see eye-to-eye, and John Hart was happy to cede lots of control and power in the organization to Buck.
So Fuson was fired and Hart stayed on board. When Hart left after the 2005 season, it was assumed that Jon Daniels was just a puppet for Buck. Didn’t turn out that way, but Buck’s history is that he’s power hungry and wants a lot more control over the organization than managers generally get.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 9, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Buck is still the same Buck.
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
I do not sense any magic tonight.
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
Doesn't change a thing
Take out Vlad out of the entire season, insert anyone else you want in the organization—> you still have a last place team.
Do you honestly think if instead of Vlad you had Jose Bautista on this team would be in first place? Couple of more wins – That’s it.
This is just frustration and people are picking on Vlad. This team stinks top to bottom and yes, including Vlad. But when Adam Jones keeps grounding out into double plays in key situations, Hardy goes through one month cycles of hot and cold, Reynolds strikes out 2-3/game, Vlad swings at everything – and most importantly, starting pitchers give up 5 runs by the third inning, what you expect?
We could at least feel better if we knew the O's recognized where there were problems and tried to correct them.
"That ball is gone. We'll pause ten seconds to commit suicide ... I mean, for a station identification." - Joe Angel, 6/17/11
by Eat More Esskay on Aug 9, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Vlad hitting cleanup for this team is not the biggest problem needing to be addressed.
In fact this would be a good instance to use the deck chairs on the Titanic analogy, as moving Guerreo down in the lineup is essentially that.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
That is not the point
Yes the Orioles would be terrible even if you replaced our worst player with the best player in baseball (Felix Pie for Jose Bautista still makes the pitching staff the worst or one of the worst in the game). From a “let’s maximize our chance to be good” this is absolutely nitpicking on Vlad, who I guess deserves some respect for the way he played well on the Angels and the Expos. Bully for him, by the way.
The point is that he is awful for the Orioles, and they don’t give a flying fuck. And that says to me they don’t give a flying fuck about even trying to maximize their chances on any given night.
And that is so far from okay with me that it circles back around to okay and then goes back to as far away from okay as it can get.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the Orioles' season?
What in the world?
This comment is absurd.
You’re basically saying “oh well, since their roster sucks what difference does it make”? But you should still, as Teddy Roosevelt would say, do “what you can, with what you have, where you are”. To even compare the transgressions of Vlad with Hardy and Reynolds is preposterous.
You can do better for your first ever SBN comment “JP”.
by Wieters Wieners on Aug 9, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
THE NEW JP???
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Aug 9, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take the old JP
This is more like the new dciswe
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 10, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
except that Hardy, Jones, and Reynolds are actually good hitters this year.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Aug 9, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you honestly think if instead of Vlad you had Jose Bautista on this team would be in first place? Couple of more wins – That’s it.
Except it’s 6.8 wins using fWAR.
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
which would still be a bad team...
but not so soul crushingly, depressing of a team.
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
so what, 50-61? not super terribad I guess…
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Aug 9, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
they’re going to be horrible no matter what, so why bother even trying! Just put your shittiest hitter leadoff from now on!
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
you are one psychic motherfucker.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Aug 10, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, that's some scary shit.
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
I don’t think he’d be hurting the team considerably more or less if he were batting anywhere else, it’s just the principle of him batting cleanup that makes me mad.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
wanna make a deal? how bout that Uehara guy…
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Aug 9, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
what's your take on Hunter?
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
He is what he is
Decent #4/#5 guy whose lack of an out pitch limits his utility. Nolan Ryan supposedly loved him, because he’s fearless and has a bulldog mentality. If he gives up 8 runs in the first inning, he’ll go back out there in the second, take the ball and keep challenging the hitters. There was some suggestion that guys with better stuff, like Matt Harrison and Derek Holland, would be well-served to learn from Hunter’s mindset/attitude.
He’s also been hurt in spring training three years in a row, though, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some conditioning issues involved there. If he can stay healthy, though, he has value while he’s under team control as a relatively cheap back of the rotation guy who will eat innings and keep you in games.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 9, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
No problem
He and Davis were both considered really good guys, popular with the fans, the media, and in the clubhouse. Davis, in particular, needed a fresh start somewhere, but I think most Rangers fans are pulling for them to have success with Baltimore.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 9, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I liked your take on Buck Showalter you wrote for CC when he was hired by BAL. Particularly this part.
One of the most memorable episodes in Showalter’s tenure with Texas was his showdown with Rangers’ owner Tom Hicks in mid-2004. Hicks hired John Hart in 2002 with the understanding that he’d groom Grady Fuson, brought over from Oakland, to be Hart’s successor, taking over for Hart after the 2004 season. Fuson and Hart weren’t exactly best buddies, and by spring 2004, there were two camps forming, with Showalter and Hart aligned in one camp, and Fuson and his people in the other. The scuttlebutt was that Showalter was a big fan of Hart, because Showalter wanted to have a lot of control and say-so in what happened in the organization from top to bottom, while Hart was more interested in playing golf, and was happy to cede control to Showalter.
It looks prophetic especially given the rumblings of Buck getting promoted to GM (shudder).
As far as Davis and Hunter go, there are concerns here about him staying the rotation in the AL East. But I’ll be thrilled with 175 IP with decent results out of the 4/5 spot. I’m more than happy to give Davis a clean slate. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s released a year from now, but he’s a good guy take a flyer on.
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
we're just the organization to fix offseason conditioning!
"Initially thought I had BieberFever but turns out I have pneumonia."
-Guts
This
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 10, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
"bulldog mentality"
Great. Just what we need is a guy who gets rocked, but keeps going after hitters.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
You think he should toy with the edges then?
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
No - I think "bulldog mentality" is a stupid bullshit term
and I don’t want our pitchers giving up 8 runs ever if they can help it, but if you’re giving up 8 runs then maybe you SHOULD be aiming more for the corners.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
For the record
Vlad will hit a home run tonight – unfortunately it’ll be a solo because none of the “good” hitters will have managed a hit (or cleared the bases with GIDP’s)
Honestly, next year this time, same story different guy —> still last place.
Hmmmmm, methinks me smells a troll
Anyone have their banhammer handy?
by Wieters Wieners on Aug 9, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones: 13
Reynolds: 8
Hardy: 6
Vlad: 12
so there’s that. all but Jones have GDP’d less. for what it’s worth, Jones also has 11 more homers than Vlad which should be surprising to no one.
by what metric are Jones, Hardy, and Reynolds having bad years?
WRC+ for each:
Hardy: 122
Reynolds: 120
Jones: 122
not world beating numbers, but these three are all having pretty good seasons ATM.
yeah I fed the troll, deal with it.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Aug 9, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Also noted last night these three are the players for the
first team in the majors this season to have three players with at least 20 homeruns
"Harpoon It!" - Rick Dempsey concerning David Ortiz attempting to take home against Nick Markakis 4/27/2011
yup, saw that on the scoreboard last night. judging from our record it really doesn’t mean anything, but I thought it was really cool.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
"We’re not backing down, we’re not scared of them...them and their 180 million dollar payroll"
- Kevin Gregg
by danielreese05 on Aug 9, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
it means if more guys were on base the win lose would probably look a lot different
"Harpoon It!" - Rick Dempsey concerning David Ortiz attempting to take home against Nick Markakis 4/27/2011
Absolutely
The lineup is perfectly serviceable. With more patience and the lineup ORGANIZED the proper way, there definitely could’ve been a few more W’s this year. And this is kind of the whole point of the article it seems. Not just plate patience, but without the deadweight of Vlad and for most of the season DLee in the heart of the order (and Pie) every night, there could absolutely have been more runs on the board.
Some quick stats to consider…
-We’re 20th in the league in OBP but 11th in SLG
-In our 69 losses this year we’ve lost 12 games by one run (including the last two nights)
-We’ve lost 11 games by two runs.
That’s 1/3 of our losses decided by two runs or less. We turn half of those close games around with a lineup structured properly and more plate patience, and we’re a .500 team.
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Aug 10, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
What your information points to ...
.. is not that a better organized lineup would have resulted in more wins, but that poor pitching is what is costing this team.
based on this I’d put a better hitting philosophy ahead of a better organized lineup as a higher priority for the O’s.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
I know this sounds naive
but has anyone considered writing a letter about this to Buck/Andy/Peter? It sounds silly, but I’ve seen several stories (like this one) about managers and GMs reading fan mail. Particularly if you included something about being a long-time season ticket holder who is on the fence about purchasing seats for next season. Sure, I wouldn’t expect a reply, nor would I expect a single fan letter to convince Buck to move Vlad down in the order. But if you’re as pissed off as you sound in this post, then writing a letter may make you feel just a little less powerless.
by TheTrapezoidConspiracy on Aug 9, 2011 6:30 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Aug 9, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I didn't know that.
That’s cool. Of course if we had a player from the MacPhail family, the obvious jokes would be made even more.
Making sense of it?
Buck obviously trusts the veterans in key spots. I’m sure he receives some pressure to keep them in the line up. OK, whatever. Building the young guys. The biggest thing about young guys in professional sports is making sure they stay hungry. That they keep that fiery, burning passion. The desire to be better, to want to be “that guy” who deserves to be in the line-up and has worked their butt off to get there.
Could Buck just be trying to keep the young guys hungry? I mean, I think these are going to be trying times no matter what. No use sinking a young guy during what’s undoubtedly going to be a failure of a season. Might as well keep the veteran – who won’t feel over pressured at cleanup – in the line-up instead.
… Just trying to play devil’s advocate here.
at least vlad will ground out with nobody on base next inning.
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
too bad dunn isn't batting clean up.
The Andy MacPhail plan: "Grow nothing. Buy the pen," (Wieters Weiner 2011).
You have one strong constitution if it has taken Vlad to sow some doubt.
I often wonder why I even bother to pay any attention to the O’s. Best I can come up with is stories of humiliation and degradation are always of some interest
Keep the faith, man
2011 has no doubt been a tough season for me as an Oriole fan. While the Vladi signing was a mistake from the get go and clearly represented a fundamental misunderstanding of where the team was at, there were some other signs of life in the organization. I looked around and saw Markakis, Matusz, Wieters, Jones and I wondered if there was a core to compete. Tillman, Arrieta, Britton, and even decent players like Moldy. Hardy and Reynolds were bought for peanuts. But 2011 has been a failure and it really sucks.
If nothing else, 2011 should mean the end of MacPhail. Of course, it will also mean the beginning of another yawner of a GM, where I’m sure Angelos will hire some lackey like Bill Bavasi or something…
Even still, better times have to be ahead. Right?
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
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