Selling on Adam Jones
Bottom of the second, one out, no score.
Adam Jones digs into the box, spits, twirls his bat into his set stance. All the while he looks out at the mound, preparing himself. He lays off the first pitch high and away, not even close. It is the last day of another forgettably terrible season, and I can't help but wonder how motivated he could possibly be in this at-bat. But he looks as locked in as he always does. The second pitch he rips down the line, foul. The third is a breaking ball, the classic down-and-away changeup that has always and will always fool him. The pitcher is lefty Jon Lester; Jones stepped into the box in trouble. Now he has two strikes and he's really in trouble. With two strikes he's just a .180 hitter.
Lester threads another changeup down and away, but Jones adjusts. He lunges, cutting his swing down, and puts wood on ball. The ball squibs out towards secondbase. The Boston shortstop, Marco Scutaro, fields it nimbly and throws to first, but far too late. Adam Jones has an infield single. The crowd claps but does not appreciate the moment for what it is. It will be the last time he stands on first base as a Baltimore Oriole.
Or at least I believe so. While the actual moves made by the Orioles this winter could at best be characterized as tepid roster tweaks, there have been a good number of interesting rumors surrounding the team. At the center of good ones sits Adam Jones. Which makes a ton of sense. Jones is one of the team's best players, but is in his arbitration years, is only two seasons away from free agency, and appears in many ways to have plateaued developmentally. His value to a bad team like the Orioles before he reaches free agency is significantly lower than his value to a competitive team in need of a good center fielder.
When it became clear towards the end of the season that the Orioles would have a new de facto General Manager for this offseason, I asked myself what I wanted to see from him or her. The answer I ended with was that I wanted to see a clear strong direction, either legitimately building or legitimately rebuilding. And, really, what I want is rebuilding. I have made the case more than a few times that the Orioles right now are not built primed to jump into competitive baseball.
There just isn't enough upside on the roster, and Adam Jones is a big part of that. He's a good player who I like, and I think he's got plenty of trade value, but the way the development of his production has stopped has me believing he isn't going to get much better. If the Orioles are going to take a huge step forward soon, "much better" is exactly what Jones (among others) needs to be. As evidence, I submit to you his career .319 on-base percentage, and his 2011 on-base percentage that matched it.
There are plenty of folks that disagree with me, of course. Plenty of Oriole journalists think Jones is a player you build around, a player who is going to get really, really good in the future. Dave Cameron of Fangraphs, a guy I've never met but look up to as much as anyone, recently wrote that believes Adam Jones has a lot of upside left in him. Cameron isn't arguing that the Orioles should hold onto Jones, but his fundamental argument is the one trumpeted by those who do want Jones to stay an Oriole. You should read the article before I counter-point it, but here's the general gist:
To show this general skillset’s potential, I grabbed a list of all player seasons from the last 10 years where the hitter was 25 or younger, swung at 50% or more of the pitches they were thrown, and posted an ISO of at least .150 (to eliminate the middle infielders and catchers who are simply in the sport for their glovework). This group is essentially a collection of athletic players who got to the show based on their physical skills, but showed a significant lack of polish early in their career.
[snip]
Guys who become regulars in their early-20s due to their athleticism often lag behind when getting judged by their on base percentage. However, their broad base of skills allow them to be useful players while still developing, and with more experience, their overall performances improve, sometimes dramatically.
Cameron takes 24 players he considers similar in skillset to Adam Jones and separates them into four groups. The "Future Star" group has nine players, the "Quality Regular" five, "Decent Role Player" four, and the "Bust" group has six players. I calculated out each of Cameron's groups' OBP through their age 25 season (since Jones' 2011 was his age 25 season), and then calculated their OBP since then as well (these numbers are courtesy baseball-reference):
- Class: OBP-through-25 / OBP-after-25
- Future Star: .342 /.369
- Quality Regular: .332 / .343
- Decent Role Player: .308 /.307
- Bust: .314 /.289
Here you see the immediate problem. Adam Jones and his .319 OBP has more in common with the lower end of the spectrum than the upper end. In fact, the one player with the closest OBP through 25 in the entire list is Bust Angel Berroa at .317 (since then: .268). The guys who became really good players after they turned 26 were already significantly better than Adam Jones. And then remember that if Jones is going to develop enough for the Orioles to reap the rewards, he has to do it in the next two years, before he hits free agency.
Of course, on-base percentage is not everything. Carl Crawford for example is in the "Star" group despite his relatively low career .333 OBP because he plays above average defense and hits for power. I can't state enough that I think Adam Jones is a good player, and he is only 26 years old, not yet in the traditional prime years of a baseball career. He should fetch a good price on the trade market. But what holds him back from being great is that he fails at the most fundamental part of the offense game: he makes too many outs with the bat.
Executive Vice President Dan Duquette has talked a lot about the Orioles need to increase their on-base percentage. He has acknowledged that the Orioles in a very general sense need to get a lot better. He also has acknowledged that he does not have very many trade chips. With rumors flying about trading Adam Jones to the Braves or the Nationals or the Mystery Team, it all adds up in my brain as saying Adam Jones is probably on his way out the door.
That makes me sad on many levels. Jones is a young, talented, and extremely likeable player. He is also, unfortunately, flawed in such an important way that his value as a trade chip far outstrips his value on the field for the Orioles. If he is indeed traded for a big package of prospects, it will be the first move of the Dan Duquette era that I can really be proud of.
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moving jones
right now with his value the highest is a good decision and probably the right move. but other teams have made the same conclusions that you have and probably the reason he isn’t fetching a lot. Granted, I know DD has said he isn’t moving Jones, but I don’t know excactly what that means behind closed doors.
So my question for you is: At what point (this offseason) do you move him just to move him or would you wait until July (depending on the demand)? If you wait until July and he has a good year – enough to countepoint you arguement and he would fall in the future star/quality regular tiers – would you then “build around” Jones or get something even better in return then you would have right now? Of course he could continue to play average and hind sight is always 20-20.
per usual
this all comes down to the trade being offered.
Trade Jones for legitimate starting pitching coupled with A prospects? Sure.
Trade Jones just to trade him? No way.
All of these articles being tossed around are prognostications based on a bunch of other guys.
I myself am focusing on one simple comparison, which is Jones’ 2011 numbers vs. 2010. Nearly every number is moving in the right direction.
He had a nearly identical number of PAs in 2011 vs 2010. With those PAs, he hit 6 more home runs, walked 6 more times, K’d 6 fewer times. Even though his OBP suffered a minor drop, he increased his slugging enough to get a higher OPS.
In other words, pretty much everything moved incrementally in a better direction for him. Jones showed signs of maturity to me last year as well—he seemed less the gangly flashy superstar, and more the dedicated team player. I don’t know if it’s Bick’s coaching or what, but to my eyes he is a more professional player and less of a kid.
Are these numbers eye-popping? Maybe not. 5% fewer Ks and 25% more walks—particularly with a SSS—could be just so much deviation. You could argue that his career trends are more important than statistical noise from the last year.
But it’s enough of an improvement to me to think that this guy may not have plateaued yet. And unless I see a trade that is a serious plus in the O’s’ column, I’m hanging on to him. NOT trading him this offseason doesn’t have an obvious downside. Not when he has two years left on his contract and other teams seem to be offering little of value for him.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
by zknower on Jan 9, 2012 12:34 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Pretty much this.
"I think not sucking is way more of an important thing to pay attention to first." -- Gabe Newell
That list that Cameron used
struck me as a very small sample size which makes it unsurprising to see that odd bit in your analysis where the busts have higher OBP in year 25 than the decent role players in year 25. I would think it would be more useful to expand the list beyond the last 10 years in order to get a more robust comparison group.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
My crystal ball is not returning the same answer to "Should Adam Jones be traded?" and "Will Adam Jones be traded?"
Of course, it’s a question of whether the right deal is out there. I think we’re all in agreement around here that Jones for Jurrjens/Prado is not the right deal. The whole point of trading Jones would be to get younger, to get more years of team control for cheap on players with the potential to be quality players or even stars.
To me, this kind of trade needs to happen because I share Andrew’s pessimism on Jones making the leap into that Future Star category, and even if he does make it into Quality Regular as far as OBP, he’s still likely to be overpaid as a free agent – meaning either the O’s wisely let someone else overpay him or unwisely become the ones to overpay.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Jan 9, 2012 12:55 PM EST reply actions
Step back for more perspective
The Jones rumors in conjunction with the Manny Ramirez rumors. Is trading Jones and acquiring Manny a step in the right, re-building direction?
No.
To me, not in the least bit. There is nothing for Manny to contribute other than making us look foolish.
But hey, they’ve signed Albert Belle, Sammy Sosa, and Vlad. So they probably would do it.
"The plate is 17 inches, and I’m gonna use all 17 inches, and they don’t like it because they think they’re better than everyone else." - Kevin Gregg
"Albert Belle, Sammy Sosa, and Vlad"
one of these things is not like the others…
by Stacey on Jan 9, 2012 8:37 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Nothing about acquiring Manny would be a step in the right direction.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Jan 9, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yep. Hopefully the team does something like
picking up Fernando Martinez who the Mets just put on waivers.
"I think not sucking is way more of an important thing to pay attention to first." -- Gabe Newell
Trading Jones?
What z said.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
The opening paragraphs of this
are awesome
Like a bad, suave dude. You know what I'm sayin'. COOL. SC 7/24/08
I really like the opening paragraphs, however...
If the franchise isn’t pleased with his numbers right now then what do they want at the position from Jones who is a top five centerfielder at his position and the number one centerfielder in the AL East. Yea, sure he might have trade value but who are they going to put in centerfield then? Probably someone who can’t put up half the numbers Jones does. Also, look at his value from a defensive perspective. He’s arguably the top defensive centerfielder in the AL for his run saving abilities.
Let's not get carried away here.
There is no way that Jones is ranked higher than Granderson or Ellsbury. If Desmond Jennings ends up installed in CF in Tampa Bay then Jones is probably below him too.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Jan 9, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. Jones ranks below average according to just about every fielding metric since his one good defensive year in 2008.
Not really a top defensive CFer. He does have an above-average arm, though. That has been ranked consistently high.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
I want to disagree with your conclusion, but logically I cannot
Obviously you don’t give him away, but he is worth more to the Orioles in trade than he is on the roster.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
Here you see the immediate problem. Adam Jones and his .319 OBP has more in common with the lower end of the spectrum than the upper end. In fact, the one player with the closest OBP through 25 in the entire list is Bust Angel Berroa at .317 (since then: .268). The guys who became really good players after they turned 26 were already significantly better than Adam Jones. And then remember that if Jones is going to develop enough for the Orioles to reap the rewards, he has to do it in the next two years, before he hits free agency.
If Jones takes a leap forward, it’ll definitely be through more hits with power than his ability to take walks. And, of course, more hits will lead to a better OBP.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I'd hate to see him go, but he deserves better
I think it’s unfair to compare the OBP without looking at mitigating factors. How many of those other players were required to hit third in a line-up bereft of much protection (that goes for 2011 and 2010…. I’m not trying to single out an over-the-hill Guerrero as much as a disappearing act Markakis and oft-injured Roberts. Reynolds striking out a million times didn’t help, nor did injuries to Derek Lee and J.J. Hardy). I love how everyone who wants to rip Jones always finishes with “but he has to hit in the three spot”. He’s the best position player on the roster not named Wieters (AJ is arguably one of the five best in the league… How many others have an AS and GG at this point in their careers?).
Though, DD said he hasn’t given much thought to contract extension and, if I were AJ, I wouldn’t give much thought to signing it (he gets three times the abuse on blogs, in the papers, and on the radio as Markakis while making a third of the money).
So, he has to go while the O’s get mores than a compensation pick. The suitors should be any team in “win now” mode and not in the division if it’s possible. The two best options are the Miami Marlins (new ballpark, new name, new ambitions) and Los Angeles Angels (trying to outpace the Rangers).
Unless DD can fleece the Marlins for Logan Morrison (highly unlikely) or Hanley Ramirez (hahahahahaha), it’s probably not worth it. Which leaves the Angels. A team that needs an outfielder (sorry, Vernon Wells) and a fifth starter (after Wilson-Weaver-Haren-Santana, there’s not a pitcher on the roster with more than 120 immings pitched or 20 starts in a season).
So, to that end. Here’s the deal:
The Angels receive:
- Adam Jones
- Jeremy Guthrie
- Luis Lebron (Tommy John survivor who still gets to the high 90s. Young and Raw)
- Dan Klein (semi-young, college-proven former reliever turned starter with four pitches)
The Orioles receive:
- Kendry Morales (28 year old 1B with a lot of pop and fully healthy after a bad leg injury in 2009. Expendable as the Angels have Pujols and Mark Trumbo)
- Peter Bourjos (promising, young OF blocking the way of uber-prospect Mike Trout)
It’s a win-win and helps hold the gap until the Machado-Givens-Bundy-Hobgood-Avery (ss, 2b, two pitchers, and a cf) are ready

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