Say it ain't so! Brian Roberts to be named in Mitchell Report
From SI.com:
Orioles second baseman Brian Roberts also is in the report, as are Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and Chuck Knoblauch.
Wow. Just, wow. I didn't think he'd be there. Jay, Miggi, Raffy, sure, we KNEW they would be in there. But B-Rob?
I'm gonna go cry now...
Update: For the record... Brian Roberts' name is linked via Larry Bigbie's squealfest when he mentions that Roberts once said he had tried them "once or twice" several years ago. Quite frankly, even the outraged mainstream sportswriters are having trouble sticking it to Brian Roberts. I'm kind of in the same boat, as I think most of us are mature and sane enough to admit that probably 90% of all pro ballplayers have "tried" something "once or twice." -- SC
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His name has been tied to this crap for ages
by Stacey on
Dec 13, 2007 1:03 PM EST
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I always thought....
by duck on
Dec 13, 2007 1:05 PM EST
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Many predicted this
I'm not remotely surprised.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 13, 2007 1:07 PM EST
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Nothing
by BPinOK on
Dec 13, 2007 1:09 PM EST
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SHOCKING
by GeronimoGil on
Dec 13, 2007 1:26 PM EST
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Geronimo Gil
by BPinOK on
Dec 13, 2007 1:30 PM EST
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haha
by GeronimoGil on
Dec 13, 2007 1:32 PM EST
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It's still real to ME!
Forgot how to embed, so sue me.
by duck on
Dec 13, 2007 1:38 PM EST
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I suspected as much
by silverstadium on
Dec 13, 2007 1:36 PM EST
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Ya THINK?
Sure fellas. It was that one injury and you just bad judgment just for a month or two, right?

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 13, 2007 1:45 PM EST
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I was really hoping B-Rob wouldn't be on this list
We probably won't get as much for him as we would have yesterday, but, thems the breaks....
by spike2131 on
Dec 13, 2007 1:47 PM EST
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I'm not surprised
Personally, I've always assumed that like football and the Olympics steriod use has been pretty common in baseball since the 1970's or 1980's.
by yurizanow on
Dec 13, 2007 1:48 PM EST
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there is nothing surprising about this
Thanks for the time that you've given me...
by SC on
Dec 13, 2007 2:07 PM EST
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He actually comes off not that bad in the report!!
He has been selected to two All-Star teams.
Roberts and Larry Bigbie were both rookies in 2001. According to Bigbie, both
he and Roberts lived in Segui's house in the Baltimore area during the latter part of that season.
When Bigbie and Segui used steroids in the house, Roberts did not participate.
According to Bigbie, however, in 2004 Roberts admitted to him that he had
injected himself once or twice with steroids in 2003. Until this admission, Bigbie had never
suspected Roberts of using steroids.
In order to provide Roberts with information about these allegations and to give
him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined.
So he admitted to Bigbie that he did it once or twice.
Here's the actual report: http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf
by BirdFanInPhilly on
Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST
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Bigbie
by pipkin on
Dec 13, 2007 2:19 PM EST
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Actually, I think it's more David Segui....
by Chanumas on
Dec 13, 2007 2:30 PM EST
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fair enough
by pipkin on
Dec 13, 2007 2:33 PM EST
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I'm hearing...
by rebop on
Dec 13, 2007 2:36 PM EST
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RE:
by BirdFanInPhilly on
Dec 13, 2007 2:37 PM EST
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I cry foul!
by rebop on
Dec 13, 2007 2:41 PM EST
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Brendan Donnelly is on there
by GeronimoGil on
Dec 13, 2007 3:22 PM EST
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off to the brew crew
by brooklynlovesorioles on
Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM EST
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Looks like the biggest Red Sox
This isn't going to do any good for the conspiracy theorists.
by KenDixonFanClub on
Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM EST
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why did we suck?
by brooklynlovesorioles on
Dec 13, 2007 2:42 PM EST
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re:
- A lot of our users were/are marginal guys who were just trying to stay in the league. This refers to Bigbie, Hairston, Clark, The Turd, Jack Cust, etc.
- Tejada used back when he was with the A's (at least that's what the report says), not with the O's.
- The effectiveness of HGH for improving athletic performance is medically disputed. JC Bradbury has written a lot about this on his Sabernomics blog.
by pipkin on
Dec 13, 2007 2:50 PM EST
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though...
by jq higgins on
Dec 13, 2007 2:58 PM EST
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Why would you choose a needle over a pill
by PhilR8 on
Dec 13, 2007 2:59 PM EST
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For those who don't want to pore through the repor
Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Bobby Estalella
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Benito Santiago
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Lenny Dysktra
David Segui
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carreon
Hal Morris
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettite
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
Greg Zaun
David Justice
F.P. Santangello
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody Mckay
Kent Mercker
Andy Piatt
Miguel Tejada
Jason Christianson
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Paul Lo Duca
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Chad Allen
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett Jr.
Jim Parque
Brandon Donnelly
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Nook Logan
Daniel Naulty
Rick Ankiel
Paul Byrd
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Jose Guillen
Gary Matthews, Jr.
Scott Schoeneweis
Jose Canseco
Jason Grimsley
Darren Holmes
John Rocker
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard
David Bell
by Chanumas on
Dec 13, 2007 2:43 PM EST
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Nope...
I'm not saying B-Rob is necessarily innocent, but Mitchell couldn't find a single second-hand account or rumor to smear one of his own players?
by rebop on
Dec 13, 2007 2:58 PM EST
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I thought
Friend of the Working Man
by Jonnypops on
Dec 13, 2007 4:01 PM EST
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No Pujols, either.
by BrianS on
Dec 13, 2007 4:03 PM EST
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more than the o's?
by brooklynlovesorioles on
Dec 13, 2007 2:47 PM EST
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Which, to me, says that this list is bogus
by PhilR8 on
Dec 13, 2007 2:51 PM EST
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he admitted that it was incomplete
The section on Clemens is just...wow.
by brooklynlovesorioles on
Dec 13, 2007 2:55 PM EST
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So if it is admittedly incomplete
by PhilR8 on
Dec 13, 2007 2:57 PM EST
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because you could never have a complete list.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 13, 2007 3:13 PM EST
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Yeah, makes sense
"Why am I on the list and this guy isn't?" picks up telephone
by PhilR8 on
Dec 13, 2007 3:17 PM EST
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Well, if BRod was on steroids...
by Born Under a Bad Moon on
Dec 13, 2007 3:01 PM EST
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Anyone else disappointed...
by GeronimoGil on
Dec 13, 2007 3:37 PM EST
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Not really
I still save my disappointment for the front office.
by O face on
Dec 13, 2007 6:41 PM EST
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The Orioles Win
Palmeiro
Gibbons
Jerry Hairston
Miggy
Roberts
Laker
Todd Williams
Gregg Zaun
Jack Cust
Larry Bigbie
David Segui
Jason Grimsley
Gary Matthews Jr.
Kevin Brown
Kent Merker
Manny Alexander
by brooklynlovesorioles on
Dec 13, 2007 3:45 PM EST
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The MFY have a bunch of players too
Jason Giambi
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Hal Morris
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettite
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
David Justice
Glenallen Hill
Ron Villone
Mike Stanton
Kevin Brown
Josias Manzanillo
Denny Neagle
Todd Williams
Jose Canseco
16 O's vs 18 Skankees, ugh.
also, who knew that Jerry Hairston Jr. was actually with the O's for 7 seasons?
by nesloq on
Dec 13, 2007 4:03 PM EST
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Umm...
by BPinOK on
Dec 13, 2007 4:11 PM EST
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Wow
by spike2131 on
Dec 13, 2007 4:15 PM EST
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lol! Nice one, spike. Let's get a charity game up!
by Titov on
Dec 14, 2007 3:55 AM EST
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Are you sure?
Roger Clemens, Mo Vaughn, Eric Gagne, Brendan Donnelly, Steve Woodard, Jose Canseco, Manny Alexander, Paxton Crawford, Jeremy Giambi, Josias Manzanillo, Chris Donnels, Mike Lansing, Kent Mercker, and Mike Stanton.
If the Sox had 14, I wouldn't be surprised if someone trumps our 16. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the Mets top us since one of the top informers came out of that organization.
by rebop on
Dec 13, 2007 4:04 PM EST
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Brian
Brian Roberts never used any time he roomed with the others. He confided to Bigbie he tried it once or twice on his own in 2003. Bigbie was surprised to hear that. ESPN feels this is not an infraction, it's nothing. To me it's like your kid confiding that s/he tried pot once at a party.
I assumed it was when he rehabbed for his elbow. I don't know about other guys but he earned that 2006 All Star spot cleanly. My opinion.
by Montego76 on
Dec 13, 2007 3:46 PM EST
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Mitchell asked to talk to Brian
I'm not quite sure how to respond to that -- is there more than "he tried it once in 2003 on my own" going on here, or was just trying to stay out of it, or didn't want to rat out friends/teammates that he knew were more heavily into it?
by BrianS on
Dec 13, 2007 4:00 PM EST
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Could be a lot of things
by rebop on
Dec 13, 2007 4:07 PM EST
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That's the real shame...
by BrianS on
Dec 13, 2007 4:12 PM EST
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I don't know...
by rebop on
Dec 13, 2007 5:36 PM EST
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Yes, Brian had an opportunity to clear his name

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 13, 2007 4:09 PM EST
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BRob's lawyer probably nixed any interviews
by PhilR8 on
Dec 13, 2007 7:28 PM EST
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giving him further benefit of the doubt
If he went out of his way to tell Bigbie he tried it only a couple of times, I'll assume that's all he did. Which isn't as bad as the other guys, right?
Furthermore... Just look at the guy, it's not like he ever inflated and then deflated. Remember how jacked Gibbons was? And how he thinned out recently? That's what I'm assuming most roiders look like...
I dunno, I'm still a BRob fan.
by dfleis on
Dec 13, 2007 8:56 PM EST
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re:
What do you suggest? Should he have gone to the investigation and said "no I didn't". and then the committee keeps his name out of the report?
You keep talking about the chance everyone had to clear their names. I don't see how it could be done in this investigation. Seems to me players were presumed guilty via any accusation. I'm not sure how they "clear their name" in such circumstances.
by drj on
Dec 13, 2007 9:17 PM EST
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presumed guilty by you perhaps
You clear your name by answering questions when the panel convened to conduct an investigation gives you the oportunity to do so; instead of a blanket refusal to talk to them. That's exactly how to clear your name.
What do you suggest? Should he have gone to the investigation and said "no I didn't". and then the committee keeps his name out of the report?
Exactly. If it's not a true story, then deny it like any person with nothing to hide. "Sir, all due respect, that is an outright fabrication, and I resent the implication."
If it is a true story, well, then I guess I'm suggesting he take his medecine. If someone catches you doing something illegal, man up and admit it. It certainly would have quelled any rumors of further wrongdoing, i.e., "Roberts was one of the few players who met with the committee. He did not deny the Bigbie story, but rather said it was true and that's as far as it went and he regretted his actions. He elected not to answer questions about teammates, stating it was none of his business."
Done. And people respect you for it, I think. Right now, there's more suspicion because he refgused to answer questions: Did it stop with Bigbie and Segui, or did it go further than that?

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 13, 2007 10:53 PM EST
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re:
As for "taking the medicine", Bud Selig is still making noise about punshing the offenders. And the players should go before the committe and admit guilt when the consequences are unknown, evidently by no one but Selig? I'm betting the players union advised against such a move. Should I wonder about all the players who refused to testify? You can speak in absolutes all you want, but it's not that easy.
by drj on
Dec 14, 2007 12:09 AM EST
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I think we're misunderstanding each other
Of course, once players are named in the report, people are assuming they're guilty.
My point was: if you are, in fact, not guilty, then you talk to the commission. The commission suspects you may have used steroids, but presumes you innocent; to clarify, they want to ask some questions. If you refuse to talk to them, then they presume you guilty, and this should come as no shock to anyone.
If you get pulled over for driving erratically, an officer suspects, but does not presume that you are DUI. If you then walk a straight line and touch your nose and tell him you nodded off for a moment, then he likely doesn't book you on DUI charges. If you refuse to speak to him or to take the sobriety test, then he presumes your guilt and writes you up as such.
Likewise, if Roberts interviews with the Committee and says, "that story is simply not true", his name does not go in the report. If he says, "that story is true, I tried them once, but not with those guys," his name maybe goes in as a footnote, but he gets major credibility from the public for answering questions.
But by not even interviewing with the committee, he is automatically a suspect, and rightly so. It implies, to me at least, that he didn't know what they had on him; and that implies that there may be more that he is hiding than just "I tried it once".

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 14, 2007 11:27 AM EST
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Or...
Anyway, I have no idea if the story Bigbie told is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I imagine Roberts will comment on it at some point. But I wouldn't presume guilt on the basis of the fact that he didn't agree to talk to the commission--Roberts had lots of other reasons not to talk to them, starting with the fact that his union instructed him not to.
And keep in mind, if he talks, they're not just going to ask him to confirm or deny what Bigbie said and leave it at that. They're going to ask him all kinds of questions about current and former teammates, and he would either have to either rat them out or lie.
Brian Roberts may or may not have used steroids, but the stigma of being named in the Mitchell report--based on nothing more than innuendo--will follow him for the rest of his career. He probably figured that was lesser stigma than being tagged as a rat by his current and future teammates. Can't say I blame him for that, guilty or not.
by rebop on
Dec 14, 2007 11:54 AM EST
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Or
Roberts didn't want to rat out his fellow players. Mitchell would undoubtedly ask what he has seen or heard about steriods. That said, even if the union told not to talk to the commission, any named player in the report should have agreed to talk to the commission under the condition that he would only talk about his own use if he's interested in clearing his name.
by birdman on
Dec 14, 2007 3:23 PM EST
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re:
The above is your quote. You know I wasn't talking about pieces of paper. "The report" in my statement implicitly speaks about the authors, as we both realize that a piece of paper does not make an accusation (or in my case its an electronic version and no paper whatsoever is involved). The fact that Mitchell and the investigators put names in the report implies they presumed guilt.
You say that if guilty, the player should go before the committee express his guilt. No misunderstanding here, and I reiterate why do that in this atmosphere where future punishment is unknown. What's the penalty here? Anything from nothing to some sort of ban, or anything else Bud Selig dreams up? I can't imagine players lining up, no matter how noble you think it may be.
One other overriding fact each player had to contend with is the players union telling them not to cooperate. What about all the other guys who were asked to speak with the commission but declined. Who knows why Mitchell was interested.
If you want to impose some sort of "name clearing" for the innocent or at least an attempt to restore dignity for the guilty, why limit it to those who were fingered by whatever talker, facing criminal charges depending on their cooperation, Mitchell had at his disposal? Get every single player past and present up there to make a statement about their past use or non-use. It's not binding, but it would be a public statement. At least then your approach would be comprehensive and consistent. Why single out the few you feel should be compelled to do so for a report that the author himself stresses is not comprehensive?
by drj on
Dec 14, 2007 11:56 AM EST
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whoa now
It sounds like you're saying these players were presumed guilty by Mitchell & co., and I have gone to great lengths to state that I don't believe this is true, and have laid out the reasons why. I think the committee had suspicions and gave players a fair chance to clear them up.
You say that if guilty, the player should go before the committee express his guilt. No misunderstanding here, and I reiterate why do that in this atmosphere where future punishment is unknown.
First of all, I don't say that. I say that a player, if guilty, cannot expect to leave the proceedings untarnished if he is unwilling to discuss his past actions. I say that remaining silent leaves people thinking the worst. So a player has to weigh those ramifications in deciding whether or not to appear.
Why appear when future punishment is unknown? I don't know, maybe because it's an Official MLB investigation and you want to get ahead of the curve? Maybe when they call you you decide to take an opportunity to give your side of a story? By the standards you're suggesting, any guilty person who is ever accused should plead innocent until they are convicted. A lot of folks, not knowing what punishment awaits them, choose to come clean and face the music. In criminal and civil courts, there is often an advantage to doing so. It sounds to me like you're defending the baseball players' near-universal silence on the matter. Personally, I think that's exactly the kind of behavior that led us to where we are.
One other overriding fact each player had to contend with is the players union telling them not to cooperate.
No one's union has control over their individual actions. MLBPA could advise players not to interview, but had no power to compel them not to do so. Frank Thomas is the one player I know of who agreed to interview. Last time I checked, no one was calling him a "rat", and I haven't heard of him getting any sanctions from the union. Know why? 'Cause they have no right to tell him how to act. Frankly, MLPBA is one of the entities most responsible for this mess. If players feel that following the union's advice was automatically better for them, they are being naive. MLBPA wants as much of this covered up as possible.
If you want to impose some sort of "name clearing" for the innocent or at least an attempt to restore dignity for the guilty, why limit it to those who were fingered by whatever talker, facing criminal charges depending on their cooperation, Mitchell had at his disposal? Get every single player past and present up there to make a statement about their past use or non-use. It's not binding, but it would be a public statement. At least then your approach would be comprehensive and consistent.
It would be neither comprehensive nor consistent. Baseball had different rules at different times, so consistency is well near impossible. And comprehensive? Ha. Many players who are clearly guilty have gotten up and given numerous "non-binding public statements" to the effect that they were completely clean. Do I really need to see Jay Gibbons lie to me one more time?
No, the scope of this investigation is what it is. A player wasn't called unless the committee felt they could shed some light on the matter. The union, feeling it was in the players' best inetersts, asked the players to maintain a "Wall of Silence". Most chose to do so. That's a gamble that the players and the union made together. Perhaps it didn't work out as well as they expected.
People have to be responsible for their individual actions. Saying "everyone else was doing it" is hiding behind an excuse. Saying the investigation was a "witchhunt" is bullshit: there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence of what the committee is investigating. Saying a player would afraid of being a "rat" is a straw-man: I am not saying players should have gone in and "named names"; I'm only saying theat each player was given an opportunity to clear his own name. To pass on that chance and then bitch about one's name being dragged through the mud is naive at best and posturing at worst.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 14, 2007 2:45 PM EST
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re:
As for "getting ahead of the curve" or whatever, this investigation had no ground rules. A player would have to go in on their own to face a fishing expedition with unknown consequences to their career. This is a legitimate complaint of the players union, and it turn out they were right to be wary as Selig is now talking about punishment. I know you are reasonable enough to understand why a player could be hesitant. In Robert's case, what recourse did he have? The argument is "He said A, I say not A." Does that clear his name from the report? I don't know. Again, there were no guidelines. Maybe Mitchell still prints the accusation and a footnote with Robert's denial. Is that satisfactory? Again, I know you are reasonable enough to understand that there were enough ambiguities here so that Roberts (or any player) would have reservations.
I'm not making a general statement about "any guilty person". I'm saying that the players had absolutely no knowledge of what might happen. There were no guidelines as to where the investigation could proceed or possible consequences. So I see little reason to walk into the investigation. This is particularly true for those you advocate come out and admit guilt.
My saying they should all make a statement was far fetched in the same vein as you thinking players should come forward to an investigation where they have no context or knowledge of possible consequences. You worry about lies, so what. They could just as easily lie to teh Mitchell investigation. At least a statement from everyone (yes, I know it is far fetched) would at least be a comment for the record from every player. Seems that's appropriate as Mitchell says PED use was rampant. Why do you require action by the few actually named when he says use was widespread?
As for different eras, who cares? You seem to have ignored them. The players mentioned here played under different periods and associated rules, yet you claim they had the opportunity to clear their names of things baseball may have said was OK at the time they played. (I don't have all players lined up with associated rules at the time. However a number of these guys played in the past when rules were much more lax.). Why should they apologize for behavior MLB and Bud Selig agreed to?
As for the "rat" or "witch hunt" statements. Are they directed at me? If so please point out where I said people feared being labeled a rat or talked about a witch hunt. I may have used the term witch hunt, but not any time recently, and certainly not in this thread.
Bottom line to this whole thread is you are espousing the George Mitchell line that players had ample opportunity to clear their names. It just doesn't ring true. Especially in Robert's case when the presumption is guilt (by being included in the report) based on hearsay.
If you think there was a clear way for players to redeem their name, be my guest. You just haven't convinced me one iota.
by drj on
Dec 14, 2007 4:04 PM EST
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"guilt"
I wouldn't use the "guilty" but I would certainly say the Mitchell report raised my suspicion quite a bit about steroid use for any player named in the report. There were definitely quite a number of players that I didn't suspect before yesterday, but I now suspect either used regularly or dabbled a bit.
"If you think there was a clear way for players to redeem their name, be my guest."
They should have testified under the condition that they would only talk about their usage but nobody else. This would end all doubt. For example, see here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15mitchell.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
by birdman on
Dec 14, 2007 5:00 PM EST
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and just to be clear
by birdman on
Dec 14, 2007 5:04 PM EST
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was away all weekend,
I'll never agree that including players names in a report outlining steroid use in baseball does not imply guilt. I guess we'll never get beyond this point. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could interpret it any other way.
I totally agree that players' names IN THE FINAL REPORT implies guilt. My point all along was that the players were not assumed guilty by the commission while the report was being formulated, i.e., before they were questioned (or attempted to be questioned). I think that was our disconnect (yours and mine). Once again, I completely agree that anyone whose name is in the final report is implied as guilty. But not so when they are being asked to appear before the committee.
- lack of ground rules in investigation: and far fetched in the same vein as you thinking players should come forward to an investigation where they have no context or knowledge of possible consequences ... i addresses this above. life does not always give one an advance set of "ground rules" or possible consequences (what's the worst punishment I might receive?" "well, that depends on what you tell us."). when people ask you to tell the truth, you can elect to speak to them or not, and you can elect to be honest or not; but there's no reason anyone who is investigating misconduct should be obligated to tell you in advance all of the potential ways the situation would play out.
- different eras: i haven't ignored anything, i'm the one who brought it up. just saying that there's NO WAY to get consistency in this process, and i am the first to admit that. and i never said any player should apologize for past behavior, either.
- rat and/or witch hunt not directed at you personally. other commenters used these terms upthread, and i was trying to prevent them being brought up again
Again, from page 158 of the report: "In order to provide Roberts with information about the allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined."
This is where sympathy meets its limitations. No matter the outrage accused players surely will express in the coming days, remember that they had their opportunity. Based on the thoroughness and objectivity Mitchell exhibited throughout, if Roberts -- or any number of other players -- had chosen to participate, the reputations they care so passionately about presumably could have been spared immensely.
That's the part I never understood. If you have nothing to hide, then why hide? If you don't want to be wrongly fingered in the final report, then why not defend your name during the investigation rather than wait for the aftermath?
If Roberts did nothing wrong, he should have shared that with an investigator.
In addition to assisting the investigation, the players association could have helped its players. The union has resisted Mitchell and this investigation since it was announced 20 months ago. Rather than embrace the mission and the objective, union officials stamped their feet and warned players against cooperation.
Roberts' silence in the days since also speaks volumes. one would expect a person innocent of the accusations to denounce them in some way.
but enough of this. respond if you wish, i have no problems if you want to get the last word in. i think we both understand each other's POV.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 16, 2007 6:54 PM EST
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Expect a flurry of trades tomorrow
Speaking of which: According to the Cincy Enquirer, no Bedard trade unless they give us Bruce. Which they won't.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 13, 2007 4:20 PM EST
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Until I actually see something more from
by NHZ on
Dec 13, 2007 5:27 PM EST
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Cliff Notes of the Mitchell Report
here are some thoughts:
- NO current player is gonna talk after what happened to Raffy.
- It's ALL heresay, although the copies of checks for exact and similar amounts from different players is pretty damning circumstantial evidence.
- B-Rob does come off particularly light, all things considered.
- Almost all evidence (save for the BALCO evidence) is based upon the accounts of two clubhouse guys based in New York.
- David Segui was the ringleader of the Baltimore connection.
- Paul Lo Duca was the West Coast ringleader (again, save for BALCO).
- MLB and Union officials conclusively had their heads in the sand (or, alternatively, up thier own asses) until 2005.
- The only reason Jose Guillen and Jay Gibbons were suspended and not Ankiel, Glaus, Matthews, Hairston, et al. in the internet pharmacy fiasco is that THEY ADMITTED THEIR GUILT and the others didn't.
by Dave at Bottomfeeder Baseball on
Dec 13, 2007 6:08 PM EST
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The Witch Hunt is just getting started folks.
by rebop on
Dec 13, 2007 6:40 PM EST
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Politicians love this shit.
Friend of the Working Man
by Jonnypops on
Dec 13, 2007 6:55 PM EST
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A rousing no shit to that..
Probably not, Congress is pretty good at finding excuses for not actually being physically present at work.
by timg56 on
Dec 13, 2007 7:18 PM EST
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he only used it a couple of time back in 03
by westcoastOfan on
Dec 13, 2007 8:19 PM EST
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I remember
Friend of the Working Man
by Jonnypops on
Dec 13, 2007 10:33 PM EST
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re:
Thanks for the time that you've given me...
by SC on
Dec 14, 2007 1:45 AM EST
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well, personally
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess insiiiiiide
Give them a sense
Of pride
To make it easier
Let the children's laughter
Remind us how we used to be...
Friend of the Working Man
by Jonnypops on
Dec 14, 2007 10:58 PM EST
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Proof that 1) Steroids WORK! and 2) No they DON'T!
- Jose
- Ozzie
by Titov on
Dec 14, 2007 4:04 AM EST
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I have a hard time taking all this seriously
The other thing that cracks me up are the people calling into radio talk shows who are saying they aren't going to watch baseball anymore because of this. Yeah right. Either you weren't much of fan to begin with, incredibly naive, or in complete and utter denial.
You know, I'm going to stop listening to the Rolling Stones because I just learned they were all a bunch of dope fiends.
by yurizanow on
Dec 14, 2007 8:57 AM EST
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Our team is clean! No current players were implicated in Mitchell report.
In my case I had to witness it on the local Boston channels - both as lead stories and in the sports broadcasts. I'm keeping an eye on the storm reports and couldn't avoid the proclamations of relief that the 2004 and 2007 teams were deemed "clean".
by drj on
Dec 14, 2007 9:22 AM EST
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RE:
by BirdFanInPhilly on
Dec 14, 2007 9:30 AM EST
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RE:
by BirdFanInPhilly on
Dec 14, 2007 10:24 AM EST
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Cue the C&C Music Factory track....
Friend of the Working Man
by Jonnypops on
Dec 14, 2007 10:55 PM EST
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It seems...
I can understand why someone might feel relieved that their favorite player wasn't named in the report, but the fact that they weren't doesn't mean they're clean--not by a long shot.
by rebop on
Dec 14, 2007 12:05 PM EST
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They were?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
by BrianS on
Dec 14, 2007 9:28 AM EST
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Yeah...
by rebop on
Dec 14, 2007 12:39 PM EST
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So Paul's head is naturally that size?
by BrianS on
Dec 14, 2007 3:56 PM EST
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I have a hard problem taking seriously
In some ways it is an injustice to link a guy like Roberts, who apparently dabbled with the stuff a couple times, to this issue, yet leave a guy who was an obvious juicer with an untouched reputation.
by timg56 on
Dec 14, 2007 9:38 AM EST
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no
None of these are claims made by the committee. In fact, they have gone out their way to say:
- there are likely many other suppliers
- there are most certainly many users they did not uncover
- the report in no way is supposed to be a comprehensive finding of all steroid use in baseball, but is (rather) a limited finding which documents in no uncertain terms how widespread the problem is withing the game.
This doesn't mean that these people's reputations remain "untouched". It simply means that this particular investigation, which had no legal powers (subpoena, etc) and had to rely solely on interviews and circumstantial evidence, could not find anything linking them to PEDs.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB
by zknower on
Dec 14, 2007 11:38 AM EST
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though...
by jq higgins on
Dec 14, 2007 11:47 AM EST
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So what's the point?
The only thing that comes to mind is that they needed it as a hammer to use against the players union.
by timg56 on
Dec 14, 2007 2:16 PM EST
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Well....one thing this report proves.
by Chanumas on
Dec 14, 2007 9:45 AM EST
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larry the canary
accusation against roberts is WEEEAAAAAK.
by thewaywardO on
Dec 14, 2007 10:11 AM EST
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Bud Selig needs to go
Lost in the sensationalization of the Mitchell Report is the only question which I think is germane to this whole discussion right now: why in the hell did Bud Selig handle this situation in this way?
I think anyone who knows anything about baseball would have to agree with the following:
- The names that show up on the list are basically random, in the sense that it could just as easily have been 80 other MLB players whose names had shown up and these 80 who didn't. The identity of who got outed has more to do with the identity of the people who agreed to talk to the investigators than it does with who the users actually are.
- If you go behind the list of names and photographs, the evidence that implicates most of the guys on the list is both thin and anecdotal. In many cases, it is a single source with knowledge of a single use of a substance.
- Steroids did not change careers. Clemens and Bonds were great players before and after; Pettitte et al were very good players before and after, and Chad Allen and Adam Piatt suck any way you slice the bread.
Bud has now given us a cancelled World Series and the biggest public scandal to hit the game in almost 90 years. Isn't it time that the regulation of the game got turned over to someone who actually gives a fuck about it?
by leeotis on
Dec 14, 2007 10:32 AM EST
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As for this being the biggest scandal. I pretty much take it for granted that all athletes look for an edge via PEDs. I personally find it more disconcerting that football and basketball players seem to be more involved in activities that lead to shootings and the occasional murder.
by drj on
Dec 14, 2007 10:46 AM EST
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I don't know if it's the biggest
First, I don't think anyone really thought baseball was somehow different than every other sport and devoid of steroids, but it was huge shock of prevalent cocaine was throughout the Major Leagues. Particularly in Pittsburgh and Kansas City.
Second, although I personally don't take the use of steriods lightly, I don't think any of us consider them in the same league as cocaine. Steriods creates guys like Jose Canseco, while cocaine creates guys like Daryl Strawberry.
Third, the behavior of the players caught in the crosshairs during the the 1980's was just as shameful (particularly those who testified in the Pittsburgh drug trial) as Mark McGwire or Raphael Palmeiro during the Congressional hearings.
Fourth, the kinds of people the players were associating with were of a magnitude worse than the Balco guy or the clubhouse attendant for the Mets. In the Pittsburgh case, those were the same drug dealers that Ray Liotta's character was doing business with in Goodfellas. They were connected to actual gangsters, gamblers, etc.
Now this current brew-ha-ha is certainly more publicized scandal, so it's bigger in that sense, but personally I don't see how it's worse news for the big leagues than the cocaine scandal.
by yurizanow on
Dec 14, 2007 10:48 AM EST
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As a 25-year-old...
I gotta think though that the steroid scandal is gonna be something that goes down in history. Of course I say that now, one day removed from the Mitchell Report, but there are several hallowed records that have been broken, ostensibly with the help of steroids. We'll never know if Clemens could have gotten 300 wins without steroids (maybe?) and we'll never know if Bonds would have gotten as many home runs as he has without steroids (probably not). So there is reasonable doubt in these cases, and this will be a footnote to history.
So while cocaine a helluva drug, and I'm sure it was a major scandal in its own right, does its use enhance performance? Was Daryl Strawberry a better player on coke? Was it widely used as an agent to enhance performance?
Probably not. So while it was a major criminal scandal, it won't resonate within the Hall of Fame and the annals of Baseball History in general. The steroid scandal most likely will.
by PhilR8 on
Dec 14, 2007 10:58 AM EST
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dude...
by jq higgins on
Dec 14, 2007 11:15 AM EST
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Coke is it?
Isn't speed a name for amphetamines, the "greenies" that were supposedly everywhere in MLB clubhouses?
I can see how that would be a PED, but I didn't know coke was taken for performance-enhancing reasons.
But my knowledge of side effects and stuff is pretty limited to alcohol. I played wiffleball drunk a few times, and it was definately not a performance-enhancer at the plate. I was also a first basemen on the company softball team. No beers: first base is easy and fun. Several beers: first base is a wild adventure filled with excitement and danger at every turn.
by BrianS on
Dec 14, 2007 11:26 AM EST
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you are correct...
by jq higgins on
Dec 14, 2007 11:31 AM EST
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It's still debatable...
Alcohol is a depressant, and in no way comparable to the effect of cocaine on the central nervous system.
by rebop on
Dec 14, 2007 12:20 PM EST
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I'm reading about it on Wikipedia
Wasn't cocaine use and abuse indicative of the 1980's in general? I don't think you can say they same about steroids.
by PhilR8 on
Dec 14, 2007 11:30 AM EST
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My teammates
That's another thing about this whole phony drama that bothers me. Steriods have been prevalent in sports on every level for at least 30 years and everyone in the newspapers and on TV is acting like this is some big revelation.
by yurizanow on
Dec 14, 2007 4:14 PM EST
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The cocaine scandal
This is the first scandal that I can think of which implicatest the integrity of the game since the Black Sox scandal.
by leeotis on
Dec 14, 2007 11:21 AM EST
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It should have been
Given how evenly steriod use seems to be distributed among Major League teams and the variations in the records of teams that had a lot of players that used steriods, I don't think that their use altered the natural outcome of individual seasons or even games all that much. In my mind if every team juices (which seems to be the case), then no team gains an advantage from juicing (as the Baltimore Orioles show quite well).
Back in the 1980's there was a potential of guys deliberately throwing games to pay off people they owed money to which is far more serious in my mind than guys trying to get a competitive edge illegally.
by yurizanow on
Dec 14, 2007 4:10 PM EST
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Can't you see that it is OK to be associated with genuine gangster-types (I present football and basketball as evidence).
The big scandal is that the baseball steroid era infringed upon sacred and hallow baseball records.
The public can deal with an occasional murder or two, but that 73 sans asterisk has them in a tizzy.
by drj on
Dec 14, 2007 4:16 PM EST
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I think that reflects your age
Take my word for it. The cocaine scandal was a really big deal in it's day. It was viewed very much as part of the overall drug crisis in the United States during the 1980's, but people were really shocked by it. The difference it that now there are far more media outlets and an even bigger tendency to exaggerate and hype things than there was was before.
Twenty years from now some other 25 year-old won't know what the big deal about the steriod report was.
by yurizanow on
Dec 14, 2007 4:03 PM EST
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Steroids...
Of course things should also be kept in perspective--cocaine abuse was and is a much larger societal problem than steroid abuse. Still, it's not something you want to see your kid messing around with.
by rebop on
Dec 14, 2007 12:26 PM EST
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RE:
by BirdFanInPhilly on
Dec 14, 2007 12:32 PM EST
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Nevertheless...
Technically, Caminiti died of a heart attack. While the heart attack was brought on primarily by excessive cocaine use, the coronary artery disease and enlarged heart he suffered from (which were likely the result of his past steroid abuse) were also likely contributing factors in his death.
by rebop on
Dec 14, 2007 12:51 PM EST
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I think this is a great post
by PhilR8 on
Dec 14, 2007 10:49 AM EST
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Actually, Bud Selig needs to have been gone
Perhaps worst of all, you're not even a good Pretend Commissioner, somebody who could at least consistently bluster in front of Congress and the media, giving the impression that there was some sort of central office in MLB which was at least trying to stay ahead of the curve and represent the sport's best interests for as many of its constituents as possible. But you don't. Never have.
Am I going too fast for you? You're a turd, Bud. A floater. Somebody's gotta flush you.
by Titov on
Dec 14, 2007 11:55 AM EST
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RE:
by BirdFanInPhilly on
Dec 14, 2007 12:34 PM EST
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for what it's worth
Crasnick: "I was particularly struck by the flimsy reference to Brian Roberts: Larry Bigbie says that Roberts told him he tried steroids "once or twice'' several years ago? That hardly seems worth wrecking a guy's reputation."
by birdman on
Dec 14, 2007 1:27 PM EST
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RE:
by BirdFanInPhilly on
Dec 14, 2007 1:38 PM EST
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Clemens
by BPinOK on
Dec 14, 2007 3:42 PM EST
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Roberts
by birdman on
Dec 14, 2007 5:15 PM EST
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Segui calls BULLSH!T
From The (Baltimore) Sun.
David didn't have problems naming people. If HE says B-Rob has no connection, I'd say the evidence is starting to mouth that Bigbie's pulling sh!t out of his a$$ to make the Mitchell folks happy.
by duck on
Dec 14, 2007 9:16 PM EST
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Rasmus
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/15/padres-acquire-jim-edmonds-from-cardinals/
oh well. hey, how about macphail just keeps bedard?!?!?!
by em3 on
Dec 15, 2007 12:51 AM EST
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