I'm done with Daniel Cabrera

by SC on Jun 19, 2007 6:11 AM EDT in Commentary Comment 28 comments

While I'm on the subject of just flat-out hating this team, let's talk Daniel Cabrera. The absolute, A-number one biggest thing I can't stomach anymore is Mike Flanagan putting on his smile and telling us all that, gosh, they thought this team was better than this. Obviously, they're more streaky than anyone hoped. But the talent is there!

The talent isn't there. Daniel Cabrera is a prime example of this. We're talking about a 26-year old pitcher in his fourth year in the big leagues. He's not an up-and-comer anymore. He's not a prospect. He's not even a project. Daniel Cabrera is what he is, and the best he can be is a back-end starter on a bad team.

His strikeouts are way down this season (9.55 K/9 in 2006, 7.14 in 2007), and the walks are still an issue. Sure, those are down, too, but he still leads the American League in free passes.

He's not going to be Nolan Ryan, and I don't even like his chances of being Bobby Witt anymore. It's almost impossible to defend him anymore. Mazzone was given a mild slab of credit early in the year for Cabrera's improvement, but it was all short-lived. At best, Cabrera is about where he was in 2005. But even that's giving him too much in the way of props.

Cabrera is having his worst season. It's time to stop waiting for him to come around and find something else to do with him, whether it's sticking him in the bullpen and seeing how he does with that, or just putting him out there and seeing if someone is desperate or stupid enough to take on the five billionth failed "raw talent" guy in baseball history.

Outside of things like performance and results, there are plenty of things to like about Danny Cabs. He's fun to watch -- when he's on. He's an intense competitor, something that is sorely lacking on the last decade of Orioles teams. But even with his intensity, how long can you shield your eyes to the blatantly obvious? In his current role, he's pointless. This is probably as good as he's going to get.

Maybe he's just a tough nut to crack for any coach, but that would just be another reason why he's not a worthwhile venture any longer. Hayden Penn or somebody else could be trying to throw every fifth day instead of more Cabrera nonsense.

I rooted for him in 2005 and 2006 (well, sort of in 2006), but I can't take it anymore. If we're going to look at a serious house-cleaning, then Cabrera's role in the starting rotation should be near the top of the list.

But that might also be giving too much credit. If the Orioles decide to really clean house instead of just hiring Andy MacPhail and replacing Sam Perlozzo, I can't help but expect it to be just as half-assed as the lineup and bullpen upgrades from this past offseason.

We suck.

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I disagree

The guy has only been playing baseball for a short time in comparison to most ball players. During his time with the O's he has been getting somewhat better considering that he has gone through several coaching changes as well as a growth spurt. The growth spurt alone could hurt his pitching mechanics. When he is on he is good as has been eveidenced several times this year. Take the game the other night when he had that bad gave up some early runs and then was unhittable. He is young in terms of his experience but if you watch him closely you can tell that the potential is there. Everyone is down on this team right now but there is no need to make decisions like this without knowing who the new manager will be and seeing what he can do with this group of players.
We live in a microwave society where we want things now not later.

by memphisoriole on Jun 19, 2007 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

RE:

I agree, I'm probably 2 years away from completely giving up on Cabrera. The guy is useful at his current level and he's still got that unreal upside.

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Jun 19, 2007 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with SC

I'm done with that joker.

by pipkin on Jun 19, 2007 9:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not done with him...

...until we move him for something. Someone has to want him just for the physical gifts, don't they? Please???

by howie14 on Jun 19, 2007 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

The guy had two years with Ray Miller and two years with Leo Mazzone. If he hasn't improved by now he isn't going to.

A friend of mine works at the Elias Sports Bureau. He told me that they researched on pitchers whose careers have started like Cabrera's for a team that was thinking about making an offer for him. The conclusion was that no pitcher who had a career that started like Cabrera's ever became an effective Major League pitcher.

Get rid of him. Get anything they can.

by yurizanow on Jun 19, 2007 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Randy Johnson?

>The conclusion was that no pitcher who had a career that started like Cabrera's ever became an effective Major League pitcher.

Last year it was in fashion to compare his career to an early Randy Johnson. Does that no longer track?

"Baltimore? That's like being hit in the head with a crowbar once a day."

by spike2131 on Jun 19, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

Randy Johnson was an aberration. Cabs is nothing more than a back of the rotation guy. He'll have a streak of really games and bad games with a bunch of so so starts inbetween. At best I could see him a 1 maybe 2 really good seasons... sort of like Ramon Ortiz. Actually, Ramon Ortiz seems like a perfect comp for Cabs.

by birdman on Jun 19, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cabrera isn't really like Randy Johnson

The Elias guys didn't just say, "well, he reminds me of Randy Johnson" (which I hopefully thought too), they examined his career in minute detail in order to to find pitchers whose careers matched Cabrera's up to that point as exactly as possible (years of service, games pitched, innings pitched, K/BB ratio, type of park, type of regular oppostion, etc.). It turns out that the reality is he and Johnson are almost nothing alike. They found about a dozen guys who were close matches and the closest to a decent pitcher was Mike Torrez in the 1970's. The rest stuck around while, broke their team's hearts, and faded into the darkness.

Get rid of him for whatever they can get.

by yurizanow on Jun 19, 2007 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not done with him

I find him to be the most entertaining pitcher on the staff. No, he's never going to be Nolan Ryan, but who cares? This team is going nowhere anytime soon, so just relax and enjoy the show already. His age is irrelevant, because when he came to the big leagues he was about as unpolished as any pitcher ever. The fact that his walks are down this year is a big deal and a good sign. The strikeout rate is still impressive. The problem right now is the home runs. Give Mazzone some more time. I'm not bailing on Cabrera for another two years, and I'm definitely not trading him for a bag of baseballs just because the team stinks and the bullpen has an ERA hovering around 9 in June. I'm willing to bet that Cabrera posts an ERA at or below the league average in the second half of the season. Keep in mind that for three years this guy's biggest problem was that he had no idea where he was throwing it. That's no longer the case. Now his problem is that he doesn't know how to mix his pitches and relies too much on his fastball, and sometimes has trouble commanding his curve. Be patient. The team's going nowhere anyway, and by the way, Nolan Ryan never figured out how not to walk people either.

by crawjo on Jun 19, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The paradigm here is Sid

D-Cabs is the taller, more Hispanic version, that's all. Worlds of talent. Potential unlimited. Flashes of brilliance. And yet it all adds up to losing. Look at the numbers.

OK, Daniel hasn't punched out any Aruban judges or DWI'ed himself into league action yet. And he's in better shape that Sid ever was. (Big deal. I'm in better shape that Sid ever was.) That's it for the diffs, the rest is similarities and degrees.

Now, we really mishandled the marketing of Damaged Goods Sid when we finally figured out that that great future was in fact behind him. Do we really have to busily not shop D-Cabs around now and wait for him to Sid-out his value completely? Couldn't we please just do what normal teams do in situations like this, I mean pretend we have an interest in getting top available market value for a "young pitcher with great talent and fine potential"?

This is not disloyalty on the team's part and it is not cynicism on my part. It is part of baseball, and the way the game is played by everybody else.

That's why we're last.

Root-a-toot tootin' Vladimir Putin Ain't-a got nootin' On Andy McP?

by Titov on Jun 19, 2007 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, at least Danny's a nice guy...

....at least he's got that over Sid.

But I agree....I think it may be time to cut bait on D-Cabs......I suppose it doesn't make sense to hope he has another gem of a start (like his one hitting the yankees) right before the trade deadline?

This is not even a logo of the Baltimore Orioles baseball club

by Chanumas on Jun 19, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

done with him

I had hope after he had eye surgery, figured it was a wild thing sort of thing. He's just not worth the trouble, he's not going to turn into the next great thing anymore, and if someone else can make it work, more power to em, it's ain't happening here. We've got pitching coming up through the farm system and we need better position players, let's get something for him while we can.

by nesloq on Jun 19, 2007 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well this shouldn't be a big issue.

There is Benson, Penn, and Loewen who should legitimitly take his spot next year. Thats not including Wright either who we still haven't seen enough of. Assuming that Trax tails off or Burres is moved to the bullpen the rotation next year still looks good with:

1.) Bedard 2.) Guthrie 3.) Benson 4.) Loewen 5.) Wright/Penn

This is assuming that they get rid of D-cab eventually, and I do not think its even in the question to move him to the bullpen. Cabrera takes a while to settle down and is out of control. Wild pitches, walks, and weak out of the stretch is not bullpen potential.

by Baltimo on Jun 19, 2007 1:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Just say no to Benson and Wright

I think Benson's a free agent and I don't want Jaret Wright anywhere near the Orioles' mound ever again...unless he's pitching for the other team.

The team needs to start getting younger. No offense to Benson (and plenty of offense to Wright), but there's no point in having guys like this. I'd rather throw Cabrera out there every 5th day.

I'd like to see as next year's rotation:

Bedard
Guthrie
Loewen (if healthy)
Olsen
Penn (or other Young Starter TBD)

I haven't quite given up on Cabrera, but I'm close. I don't think he'll ever be the cornerstone of our rotation -- I think the erratic Daniel Cabrera that we see now is all the Orioles will ever get out of him, but I'd be ok with him as our 5th starter next year (not like this team is going to be good next year, anyway) if Olsen or Penn (at which point maybe we start to write Penn off, too) aren't ready.

I can't compare Cabrera to Ponson, though. Despite their similarities as pitchers, by all accounts Cabrera seems to be a nice, respectful person who doesn't party too hard before starts and punch judges in his spare time.

oriolesupdate.blogspot.com

by BrianS on Jun 19, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

But substitute in Burres for Olsen to be honest. I don't understand why we have to move him to the bullpen where he will be rarely used. Although he can't go the distance hes probably gonna be better than alot of other guys.

And i wish that the front office would do a clean sweep and make the entire team younger. But in reality, they're probably gonna keep Tejada, and Huff, and Razor, and Mora, and all the other over the hill veterans that we could do without. We would probably have a better record with a bunch of young guys anyways.

by Baltimo on Jun 19, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

re:

Nothing about Burres seems like he's going to be a fixture in a rotation. He doesn't look any better than Travis Driskill did before the league figured him out and kicked his ass.

Avoid the clap. - Jimmy Dugan

by SC on Jun 19, 2007 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

come on now

burress is good
and he is from OR

We stink!

by westcoastOfan on Jun 19, 2007 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

re:

Burres' ERA is a mask job. He's a battler and I'm rooting for him but he's pitching over his head right now.

"People say losing is easy. Come here and try it." -- Brian Roberts

by SC on Jun 20, 2007 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I said it in another post

But unless your old like Trax or the Rocket, your fastball shouldn't be 87 mph in the first inning. Maybe it's just me but a fairly young pitcher should be throwing it a little harder over the plate or have a nasty second and third pitch. Your right Burres is exceeding what was expected of him but I would much rather have him than D-Cab, or Wright, or a struggling Penn.

by Baltimo on Jun 20, 2007 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

re:

I'd rather have a turd in a uniform than Wright.

"People say losing is easy. Come here and try it." -- Brian Roberts

by SC on Jun 20, 2007 4:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RE:

Even if we get no improvement from Cabrera at all, I don't see any reason that you dump him altogether. So far he has been slightly worse than a league average pitcher, which means he's fine as a #4 starter who can give you a decent amount of innings. I see no point in putting unproven guys like Loewen or Penn (who has failed every time) in front of him. And I seriously doubt Wright or Benson will ever pitch for the Orioles again. Without trades, signings, I see our future rotation as:

Bedard, Guthrie, Trachsel, Cabrera, Loewen

I'm not sold that Trachsel isn't due for a huge regression, but I'm getting there.

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Jun 19, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Cabrera

If our rotation stays as is - and everyone keeps performing the way they're performing.. (which won't happen) - Cabrera would be one of the best fifth starters in MLB... and one who can eat a lot of innings.

He may not be the ace everyone wanted him to be, but if he pitches 4.50 ERA with 200+ innings, that's not bad for a bottom of the rotation guy.

by dfleis on Jun 19, 2007 2:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

re:

Cabrera was my favorite Oriole in 2005 and 2006. Right now, I'm tiring of waiting.

But why not give him the rest of this dismal lost season with Mazzone? He's mostly been healthy and if the O's have anything to experiment with it's pitching. Burres has shown some spark as a starter. So go with Bedard, Trachsel, Guthrie, Burres, and Cabrera until (hopefully) another arm can come up later in the year (what the heck is Penn doing?). The O's have Loewen, Penn, Erbe, Olson, and LIz waiting in the wings. If one or two of these guys can crack through in a year, then D-Cabs is more expendable. For now he eats some innnings and I hope he straightens out.

If he can settle down a bit and some young pitching develops, it's not entirely crazy to see him to the bullpen. Lord knows they need help. Parrish needs to disappear, and Baez is a real problem that will not disppear thanks to his crappy contract. If the O's can bring a young arm up soon, give me Cabrera, Ray, Walker, Bradford, Williamson (he does exist), Hoey, and the next available guy (Doyne, Baez when he's off the DL) in the pen. You know Baez will eventually be around doing whatever it is he does.

In the meanwhile, shop Cabrera and see if you can get a good return. But he's not useless.

Angleos and his O's are a disgrace to Baltimore

by drj on Jun 19, 2007 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Penn

I believe Penn is hurt again. I thought he was done for the year, but I could be mistaken there.

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Jun 19, 2007 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The bullpen

drj,

I've been screaming for Cabrera in the pen for sometime around here. At this point the Orioles are no longer going to win anything so the best they can hope for is figuring out 2008 and hoping to try and get better. The Orioles are pretty deep in starting pitching and moving Cabrera to the pen has no downside. The bullpen already sucks and why not give the guy a shot? If they don't it's simply a missed opportunity in my opinion and if in the future some team does try this and it works, then the Orioles look like complete idiots.

The Orioles aren't going to hit. We know that. But at this point, I wouldn't mind seeing how guys like Hoey, Doyne, Cabrera, and Victor Moreno would do over the long haul in the bullpen. If those guys were to work then we still have Chris Ray, Jamie Walker and Chad Bradford to give us 7 pitchers in the pen.

If the starting rotation is as good as it was this year and that assembly of relief could put Baltimore in contention next season. We see it in Oakland and Minnesota, the ability to contend with very strong pitching and weak hitting. We see it with the Dodgers, Diamondbacks and Padres in the NL.

How many games of the bullpen lost this season? The hitting just sucks, but if the pen doesn't blow 90% of the games, the Orioles are still in the Wild Card hunt and would have to be taken seriously.

I can't see this team being THAT far away. They just have to play and be smart about the talent that they actually have now.

by Baseball Savant on Jun 19, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

re:

I think the odds of seeing Cabrera in the bullpen are slim. IF the O's had Loewen and Penn trying to work into the starting rotation, they could more readily bump Cabrera to the pen.

At this point, I really don't care who the 5th starter is. Throw Bedard, Guthrie, Trachsel, Burres, Bell. Let Bell get hammered. Trachsel is starting to fade, and Burres may not last long. Let them all get battered while Cabrera experiments with helping the pen. Missing Loewen adn Penn here hurts, but it shouldn't stop the experiment.

What have the O's to lose? That being said, it would require a major change in thinking by the O's brass. That's why odds are slim.

Failures don't plan to fail; they fail to plan.

by drj on Jun 20, 2007 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My new mantra is...

Whatever Andy MacPhail says.

Seriously. Let MacPhail take the lay of the land, and let him make the personnel decisions unfettered. If MacPhail wants to eat a contract, Peter, eat it. If he wants to trade Tejada or D-Cabs, trade him. If he says it's time to bring up the young guys and see what they have and the calendar says July 15 and we're 10 games out, bring them up.

Peter has hired a guy who at one time showed he was competent. Let him do his job, and part of his job will be to make decisions like this.

This just HAS to work. Otherwise, we're in for antoher 3-5 years of tinkering and fiddling and waiting...and 10 games under .500 baseball.

"It's really hard, but it's not as hard as we've made it look so far."
-Michael Waltrip (NASCAR's equivalent of the O's)

by duck on Jun 19, 2007 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs